(September 18, 2013 at 4:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: And for those who believe the writers made an error, well IMO they couldn't be that dumb, remember these passages were translated many times don't you think people would have noticed such mistakes if they occurred.

GC

That is one of the most ignorant things you've ever said. Don't agree with me? Read this:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/p...tions.html

But I know you won't. You'd never put your faith on the line.

But you should.

(September 18, 2013 at 4:52 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(September 18, 2013 at 1:03 am)max-greece Wrote: These are the verses you mentioned:

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Now I know you guys are much better at this than me but it would appear to me that Jesus is saying that he will return (with his angels) and do the rewarding - as in down here on earth, personally,

I'd say the context supports my interpretation more than this referring to the establishment of the Church.

Late Edit:

I just want to try to illustrate what I am saying a bit better here:

To me this says Jesus was expecting to return (end of the world type stuff) within the lifetime of the disciples and that didn't happen.

Imagine the Church was never set up. Would you read it as "Bugger me - there was supposed to be a Church!"

It seems to me that you are equating what was predicted with what actually happened and then making the tenuous link merely to keep consistency even though it really doesn't seem to fit properly.

As we have discussed before I'm not one who lives by nor attain truths by suppose, suppose did not happen so let's take it as it is.

I went and studied these verses and the same in both Mark 8:31-9:1 and Luke 9:21-27. This is what I've been trying to get across when I've said the scriptures need to be studied to find the reality within them, I was guilty of not taking my own advise in this case.

The verses you put in bold and the same in Mark and Luke are about Christ's return in the future. However the last verse in all three passages of each book is speaking of the resurrection and ascension. Like I said before, the Kingdom is the church, this is why some would not see death before it came into it's power. The church grew rapidly after the Pentecost, the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Christ had to rise from the grave before the church, Kingdom, could begin, this is what Christ meant in the last verses of each passage, He would rise into His Kingdom.
Matthew 24:36 Christ says"However, no one knows the day or the hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. This is probably after His statement in Matthew 16, Mark 8 and Luke 9, but whether it's before or after Christ would not contradict what He said. And for those who believe the writers made an error, well IMO they couldn't be that dumb, remember these passages were translated many times don't you think people would have noticed such mistakes if they occurred.

GC

Very clever

So verse 27 is talking about the second coming and the next verse is talking about the establishment of the Church (which, of course, happened first). Kinda confusing don't you think - seems to have caught us both out for a while there.

From verse 28, however "....some who are standing here will not taste death before..." Now it seems to me that the period of time between Jesus speaking and his resurrection would have to be short.

Some who are standing here? All, surely - except Jesus himself. Have we stumbled on a in-joke that only Jesus would have gotten?

(September 18, 2013 at 5:48 pm)max-greece Wrote:

(September 18, 2013 at 4:52 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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As we have discussed before I'm not one who lives by nor attain truths by suppose, suppose did not happen so let's take it as it is.

I went and studied these verses and the same in both Mark 8:31-9:1 and Luke 9:21-27. This is what I've been trying to get across when I've said the scriptures need to be studied to find the reality within them, I was guilty of not taking my own advise in this case.

The verses you put in bold and the same in Mark and Luke are about Christ's return in the future. However the last verse in all three passages of each book is speaking of the resurrection and ascension. Like I said before, the Kingdom is the church, this is why some would not see death before it came into it's power. The church grew rapidly after the Pentecost, the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Christ had to rise from the grave before the church, Kingdom, could begin, this is what Christ meant in the last verses of each passage, He would rise into His Kingdom.
Matthew 24:36 Christ says"However, no one knows the day or the hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. This is probably after His statement in Matthew 16, Mark 8 and Luke 9, but whether it's before or after Christ would not contradict what He said. And for those who believe the writers made an error, well IMO they couldn't be that dumb, remember these passages were translated many times don't you think people would have noticed such mistakes if they occurred.

GC

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Very clever

So verse 27 is talking about the second coming and the next verse is talking about the establishment of the Church (which, of course, happened first). Kinda confusing don't you think - seems to have caught us both out for a while there.

No, I think it's quite appropriate, we are speaking of Jews and they never believed Jesus would die until He was actually crucified. They were always thinking He would reveal who He was and put an end to their oppression, they still did not understand at this point in Christ's ministry it's true purpose. The church at this point was a true mystery to them, not until the day of Pentecost and their filling by the Holy Spirit were they able to see and understand the spiritual kingdom. All they really understood about Christ at this point was, He would establish an earthly Kingdom, this is the one the Jews are still waiting on.

Quote:From verse 28, however "....some who are standing here will not taste death before..." Now it seems to me that the period of time between Jesus speaking and his resurrection would have to be short.

The time at this point was probably a year give or take a little time.

Quote:Some who are standing here? All, surely - except Jesus himself. Have we stumbled on a in-joke that only Jesus would have gotten?

Well I wouldn't call death a joke, but yes Christ knew when each of them would die. I think He deliberately kept from them how soon some of these things would take place, He loved them and didn't want to worry them IMO. If it's worth anything.

GC

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(September 18, 2013 at 5:12 pm)Beta Ray Bill Wrote:

(September 18, 2013 at 4:52 pm)Godschild Wrote:

---

And for those who believe the writers made an error, well IMO they couldn't be that dumb, remember these passages were translated many times don't you think people would have noticed such mistakes if they occurred.

GC

---

That is one of the most ignorant things you've ever said. Don't agree with me? Read this:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/p...tions.html

But I know you won't. You'd never put your faith on the line.

But you should.

Biased crap, no need to read it. That's not much of a call, most of you do not read scripture and ascertain things for yourselves, you just copy others work and play follow the leader, you're an unthinking dude.

You can't destroy my knowledge of God nor my faith in who He is, Christ said do not be afraid of those who hate you, they can only destroy the body, it's temporary I will get a new one.

GC

(September 18, 2013 at 3:55 pm)John V Wrote:

(September 18, 2013 at 12:32 pm)Minimalist Wrote: You, Drippy and G-C should go out in the wilderness and start The Church of The Almighty Shitheads.

Can't, as it's already been done. It's called atheistforums.org.

Your god, if he existed, would be ashamed of you.

As for G-C - whenever he starts in on his "I BELIEVE" routine he always reminds of the Cowardly Lion.






I think he is trying to convince himself.

(September 18, 2013 at 11:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: Biased crap, no need to read it. That's not much of a call, most of you do not read scripture and ascertain things for yourselves, you just copy others work and play follow the leader, you're an unthinking dude.

You can't destroy my knowledge of God nor my faith in who He is, Christ said do not be afraid of those who hate you, they can only destroy the body, it's temporary I will get a new one.

GC

Oh, that was an excellent call on my part. You know why? Because it predicted your response perfectly.

And GC, I've read the Bible more than once, and studied scripture extensively. Remember, I was a Christian for 35 years. I know the routine. But you won't study atheism. You still have a lot to learn about your "enemy," but I know you like the back of my hand.

But I'd rather be your friend.

(September 18, 2013 at 11:56 pm)Beta Ray Bill Wrote:

(September 18, 2013 at 11:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: Biased crap, no need to read it. That's not much of a call, most of you do not read scripture and ascertain things for yourselves, you just copy others work and play follow the leader, you're an unthinking dude.

You can't destroy my knowledge of God nor my faith in who He is, Christ said do not be afraid of those who hate you, they can only destroy the body, it's temporary I will get a new one.

GC

Oh, that was an excellent call on my part. You know why? Because it predicted your response perfectly.

And GC, I've read the Bible more than once, and studied scripture extensively. Remember, I was a Christian for 35 years. I know the routine. But you won't study atheism. You still have a lot to learn about your "enemy," but I know you like the back of my hand.

But I'd rather be your friend.

If you want to be my friend you need to show it. Just because you read the Bible doesn't mean a thing, I noticed you did not say anything about studying scriptures. I know Christians who have been believers far longer than yourself and they have learned little, still babes needing milk, study means one is truly interested in what their faith is about.
I know plenty about my enemy and the enemy is not you or anyone else here, by the way how does one study nothingness, that's what atheism has been described as being, that does come from this site by atheist.

GC

(September 18, 2013 at 11:56 pm)Beta Ray Bill Wrote: ...Remember, I was a Christian for 35 years. I know the routine. But you won't study atheism...

I would like to study atheism.
How many years, months, weeks, days, minutes will it take me?

If you read the Bible already assuming its premises are true, you'll never learn anything useful or truthful from it. This is why it's always hilarious to see a Christian tell you that you're not understanding it correctly. Not a single one of you do.

(September 19, 2013 at 12:48 am)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 18, 2013 at 11:56 pm)Beta Ray Bill Wrote: ...Remember, I was a Christian for 35 years. I know the routine. But you won't study atheism...

I would like to study atheism.
How many years, months, weeks, days, minutes will it take me?

You'll never learn.

Your mind is too fucked up with a pre-existing condition called BULLSHIT.

(September 19, 2013 at 12:32 am)Godschild Wrote: If you want to be my friend you need to show it. Just because you read the Bible doesn't mean a thing, I noticed you did not say anything about studying scriptures. I know Christians who have been believers far longer than yourself and they have learned little, still babes needing milk, study means one is truly interested in what their faith is about.
I know plenty about my enemy and the enemy is not you or anyone else here, by the way how does one study nothingness, that's what atheism has been described as being, that does come from this site by atheist.

GC

I am showing it. I have given you ample evidence that religion is subjective and no culture can claim that they know the one and only God. I have tried to show you that the Bible is errancy-filled, and therefore not the work of a perfect being, but the work of simple men. What would you like me to say about the scriptures? Have you not seen my posts about the virgin birth, the trinity or why I think God is evil? I quote scripture extensively in those threads. I have never claimed to be an expert, but I'm not dumb, either.

I am trying to show you that life is not under the control of some mysterious being that can never be seen or heard. I am showing you that your life is in your own hands. Who you are, what morals you have and what goals you have in life are under your own control. And that, to me, is what atheism is all about. It's not about nothingness, it's about experiencing everything the way it should be experienced, with an open mind, not fear.

Live for growth and change, GC, don't fear imperfection.

Lion IRC,
Studying atheism is a never-ending process, because learning everything about life is an impossibly huge task. But the first step is to realize that man must control his own imagination, because that is what God is, just a fabrication of the mind of man. When you can step back and see that, you've opened your mind to a greater reality, and one that has no limits. Is it easy? Not at all. But it is better. Not having someone behind you helping your confidence is tough, but it is a prouder, more self-satisfying way to live. It's up to you to be the best you can be. Can you do it?

Start studying here:
http://www.infidels.org
The Secular Web has helped me, and it has some great things to think about on it.