(September 24, 2013 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Maybe ask a question before you make an assertion.

Noah, could have been race A his wife Race A, his sons Race 'A', their wives Race B, Race C, Race D. Which would make their sons and daughters Ab, Ac, Ad, and their progeny a combination of Ab, Ac, or Ad and so on till the tower of babble. which happens in Genesis 11 (the flood ended at the end of chapter nine.) A 1000 years could have elapsed between the flood and the tower.

At this point their were several different 'races' of people all living together in this city all speaking the same language. then god confused the language. They began to form groups, now whether the groups/languages were divided by race or not is unclear. What is clear is after 5000 years of interbreeding with only those who speak a given language (give or take some intermarriages and invasions) the gene pool narrowed making those who speak a given language a 'race' of people.

So again our primary division was in language and not skin color. (Skin color came after the language barrier.)

Well, there can be a great deal of races, although traditional anthropology only mentions five basic ones. So, maybe Noah did mate with his wife and have a Chinese son. Anything is possible through God.

The questions concerning human evolution still stand: How did man populate the Earth in just a couple thousand years? All man could do was walk on foot or ride a horse back then. The Earth is not small. And why are there homo sapien remains, dating back tens of thousands of years, all across the Earth?

Slightly off-subject, but not at all a "red-herring" are these quotes from the Book of Genesis:
Genesis 10:5-31
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue. (v.5)
These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues. (v.20)
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues. (v.31)

Genesis 11:1
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Genesis 11:6-9
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language. (v.6)
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (v.7)
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth. (v.9)

You will notice that the "tongues" of Noah's children differed greatly, long before the Tower of Babel. This is still in line with your statement that race could have come before speech, but the Bible seems to be giving conflicting information.

Also, unless my understanding is in error, God was displeased with the building of the tower, so he punished the world with different languages? Wouldn't it have been more beneficent to God to keep one language, so that everyone, everywhere, could hear his word and understand it without misconceptions? Why sour the milk?

I see a lot of questions that make no sense, scientifically or philosophically. As I said before, your theories explain some things, but only evolution explains all of them.

(September 24, 2013 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Why do you assume I am trying to play the faith card? You asked for proof. I need to know what constitutes as proof to you.

Quote: I have had many experiences where I could not imagine what evidence looked like, and yet it was provided and was very convincing.

A man who does not know what to look for, will fall for anything.

Oh, Drich... Drich, ol'boy... that's not how it works.
You don't set off looking for unicorns armed with what to expect to find (one-horned horse).
You just look at the world and catalog what you find... thus far, no unicorns appear on the catalog.





If you've found a god, then present said god for us all to marvel... if it's all in your head, then forget about it.
If you present a god which requires itself to be in our heads, then forget about it.
Why forget about it? Because it can't be differentiated from "it's all in your head/you're delusional/you're lying/you're mental". And that's an extremely important distinction.... is reality all in your head? Or is it really out there?

They say it all here:



Or be prepare to fling a shitload of bullshit to preserve your delusion

Drich, after reading your latest barrage of incivility, I wonder if it is possible to have an honest discussion with you. Since you are worried about my bona fides: yes, I was a high school teacher for many years, before I did 6 years of university teaching and graduate school coursework and bench research in evolutionary molecular genetics, but I have continued to work with teens throughout that time to improve science education. You really, really don't want to believe that I am knowledgeable on the subject, and that's OK with me. But please don't insult high school teachers- many of whom are highly educated trained scientists who choose to work with a younger age group.

Can you try to be civil to me so we can have a good conversation, or are you more interested in being insulting? I'm not going to trade potshots with you.

(September 25, 2013 at 2:04 am)Beta Ray Bill Wrote: Well, there can be a great deal of races, although traditional anthropology only mentions five basic ones. So, maybe Noah did mate with his wife and have a Chinese son. Anything is possible through God.

The questions concerning human evolution still stand: How did man populate the Earth in just a couple thousand years? All man could do was walk on foot or ride a horse back then. The Earth is not small. And why are there homo sapien remains, dating back tens of thousands of years, all across the Earth?

Slightly off-subject, but not at all a "red-herring" are these quotes from the Book of Genesis:
Genesis 10:5-31
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue. (v.5)
These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues. (v.20)
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues. (v.31)

Genesis 11:1
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Genesis 11:6-9
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language. (v.6)
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (v.7)
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth. (v.9)

You will notice that the "tongues" of Noah's children differed greatly, long before the Tower of Babel. This is still in line with your statement that race could have come before speech, but the Bible seems to be giving conflicting information.

Also, unless my understanding is in error, God was displeased with the building of the tower, so he punished the world with different languages? Wouldn't it have been more beneficent to God to keep one language, so that everyone, everywhere, could hear his word and understand it without misconceptions? Why sour the milk?

I see a lot of questions that make no sense, scientifically or philosophically. As I said before, your theories explain some things, but only evolution explains all of them.

Why the sour milk?

Because man was progressing too quickly and appearently in the wrong direction.

The Hebrew word that is translated Tongue in this context means one's literal tongue.

The first usage of this Hebrew word to mean language is in Neh13:24

Perhaps the usage indicates that people were divided by what they like to eat/taste in their food. It was not like it is today where we have the avaiablity of every type of food all the time. Regions aqnd seasons dictated what one ate.

For instance you may not like to eat fish, but if you live at the sea that would have been the majority of your diet. Say you had a taste for goat or cheese. This meant you had to live in a region that supported the food you wanted to eat. which meant you had to leave the coast and move in land far enough to raise goats.

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(September 25, 2013 at 6:01 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 24, 2013 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Why do you assume I am trying to play the faith card? You asked for proof. I need to know what constitutes as proof to you.

A man who does not know what to look for, will fall for anything.

Oh, Drich... Drich, ol'boy... that's not how it works.
You don't set off looking for unicorns armed with what to expect to find (one-horned horse).
You just look at the world and catalog what you find... thus far, no unicorns appear on the catalog.

---

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If you've found a god, then present said god for us all to marvel... if it's all in your head, then forget about it.
If you present a god which requires itself to be in our heads, then forget about it.
Why forget about it? Because it can't be differentiated from "it's all in your head/you're delusional/you're lying/you're mental". And that's an extremely important distinction.... is reality all in your head? Or is it really out there?

Again, so what are you looking for that proves that God is God, and can not be questioned or doubted once you see or experience it?

What is the Proof of God?

(September 25, 2013 at 10:10 am)Drich Wrote: Perhaps the usage indicates that people were divided by what they like to eat/taste in their food. It was not like it is today where we have the avaiablity of every type of food all the time. Regions aqnd seasons dictated what one ate.

For instance you may not like to eat fish, but if you live at the sea that would have been the majority of your diet. Say you had a taste for goat or cheese. This meant you had to live in a region that supported the food you wanted to eat. which meant you had to leave the coast and move in land far enough to raise goats.

"Traditionally, Lilliputians broke boiled eggs on the larger end; a few generations ago, an Emperor of Lilliput, the Present Emperor's great-grandfather, had decreed that all eggs be broken on the smaller end after he cut himself breaking the egg on the larger end. The differences between Big-Endians (those who broke their eggs at the larger end) and Little-Endians had given rise to "six rebellions... wherein one Emperor lost his life, and another his crown". The Lilliputian religion says an egg should be broken on the convenient end, which is now interpreted by the Lilliputians as the smaller end. The Big-Endians gained favour in Blefuscu."

Seems legit.

(September 25, 2013 at 9:01 am)Zazzy Wrote: Drich, after reading your latest barrage of incivility, I wonder if it is possible to have an honest discussion with you. Since you are worried about my bona fides: yes, I was a high school teacher for many years, before I did 6 years of university teaching and graduate school coursework and bench research in evolutionary molecular genetics, but I have continued to work with teens throughout that time to improve science education. You really, really don't want to believe that I am knowledgeable on the subject, and that's OK with me. But please don't insult high school teachers- many of whom are highly educated trained scientists who choose to work with a younger age group.

I'm not 'worried' about anything. I have debated this topic with university professors, and well as Theologians, to guys who flip burgers. it makes absolutly no difference to me.. So long as they do not lie about what they do as some ill conceived way to establish or force respect of their knowledge on this topic. which is really meaningless anyway, because again this is not an evolutionary discussion, but how the Whole of evolution now fits with in the confines of creation.

I look to accurately represent myself here, and what I say. If I can answer a question, then I will. If I can not then I will say I cant. My job nor yours should have any bearing on what is being discussed here. If you wish to proceed then proceed as Zazzy, not Zazzy the science teacher who taught at a university who originally represented him/herself as an evolutionary biologist. That way I can simply be Drich, and answer your questions or tell you I don't know.

Quote:Can you try to be civil to me so we can have a good conversation, or are you more interested in being insulting? I'm not going to trade potshots with you.

why do you consider exposing the truth insulting? I have nothing against high school science teachers. (not anymore anyway as I am not in highschool anymore.) My only issue with you was, you said you were someone/something that you were not. That problem has since been rectified in my minds eye.

My problem is not even with liars, but the lies themselves. In order for their to be an absolute or truthful conclusion, their can not be any unknowns or unaccounted for variables in the equation. Lies are unknowns or unaccounted for variables. If you are truly looking to explore my 'theory' or the revelation that entire evolutionary process could have occoured between Genesis 2 and Genesis 3, then you need to be completely honest with yourself and honest with me.

I would have normally let something like this go, but you have continually pressed the idea of truly exploring this theory... In order to truly explore something, should we not start with the truth?

(September 25, 2013 at 10:10 am)Drich Wrote:

(September 25, 2013 at 6:01 am)pocaracas Wrote: Oh, Drich... Drich, ol'boy... that's not how it works.
You don't set off looking for unicorns armed with what to expect to find (one-horned horse).
You just look at the world and catalog what you find... thus far, no unicorns appear on the catalog.

---

---

If you've found a god, then present said god for us all to marvel... if it's all in your head, then forget about it.
If you present a god which requires itself to be in our heads, then forget about it.
Why forget about it? Because it can't be differentiated from "it's all in your head/you're delusional/you're lying/you're mental". And that's an extremely important distinction.... is reality all in your head? Or is it really out there?

Again, so what are you looking for that proves that God is God, and can not be questioned or doubted once you see or experience it?

What is the Proof of God?

How should I know? You're the one claiming that a god exists, in the first place, remember?

I merely told you what's NOT proof of such divine existence... and I only showed 2 examples out of countless possibilities... 2 specially tailored examples... you should be proud!

(September 25, 2013 at 10:10 am)Drich Wrote: What is the Proof of God?

If you know anything about a god, provide the proof for it, that question is what most of atheists do. Please provide evidence to prove your god.

(September 25, 2013 at 6:05 am)LastPoet Wrote: They say it all here:

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Or be prepare to fling a shitload of bullshit to preserve your delusion

Apologetics aren't about fact finding, but excuse making to believe patiently absurd bullshit.