(October 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 1:16 pm)Faith No More Wrote: The idea that Pascal's wager involves no risk is absurd.

What's more of a risk than wasting the only life you get based on superstition?

Well you do have a point that in this world the Christian may be wasting his life if he is wrong. But most Christians live fairly good, happy lives so I am not sure it is so bad.

But the possible infinite loss of the atheist and agnostic may not be worth the imagined temporary gain in this life.

You're cherry picking the easiest question/problem and ignoring a dozen others in just the last page or so, and even the one you 'answered' has validity based on the odds of any god existing. May I ask what your purpose here is?

(October 1, 2013 at 1:09 pm)Kayenneh Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 11:33 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: The atheist or agnostic is still risking infinite loss

What bloody loss? What you seem to fail to comprehend is even though you were able to give decent proof that your god is the only one, that nearly no one here wants to a) worship your wanker of a god or b) spend eternity in the company of its sanctimonious followers in (the potential) afterlife.

As to the sanctimonious, the saved do not believe that they deserve heaven at all. They believe they deserve everlasting punishment.
But they believe that God has provided mercy through Jesus Christ crucified for our sins.

I agree that God does not save the sanctimonious. If you have not read the gospel accounts, Jesus Christ had the harshest condemnation for the sanctimonious. You would probably agree with Jesus Christ and his view on the self righteous hypocrites.

(October 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 1:16 pm)Faith No More Wrote: The idea that Pascal's wager involves no risk is absurd.

What's more of a risk than wasting the only life you get based on superstition?

Well you do have a point that in this world the Christian may be wasting his life if he is wrong. But most Christians live fairly good, happy lives so I am not sure it is so bad.

But the possible infinite loss of the atheist and agnostic may not be worth the imagined temporary gain in this life.

Welcome, Saved.

I don't know if there is an official name for this informal fallacy, but I refer to it as 'the argument from high stakes'. I suppose it's a variation of the argument from force (if you don't believe me, you'll be sorry).

It's easy to demonstrate the intuition of falseness: Pascal's Wager not only tells you to worship God to be on the safe side, it tells you which one to worship: the one with the worst hell, because that's the one you most can't afford to be wrong about. Therefore, if you discover a religion with a worse hell than the one you subscribe to, you should believe that one, because your fate will be worse if you don't and it is the correct religion.

Would you find 'our hell is worse than yours' a compelling argument for conversion?

Of course not MA. After all there can be no hell worse than the hell sanctioned by the one true God. How do we know this? Because the Bible tells us so. how do we know the Bible is right? Because it was sanctioned by the one true God that's why.

(October 1, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: Well you do have a point that in this world the Christian may be wasting his life if he is wrong. But most Christians live fairly good, happy lives so I am not sure it is so bad.

But the possible infinite loss of the atheist and agnostic may not be worth the imagined temporary gain in this life.

Welcome, Saved.

I don't know if there is an official name for this informal fallacy, but I refer to it as 'the argument from high stakes'. I suppose it's a variation of the argument from force (if you don't believe me, you'll be sorry).

It's easy to demonstrate the intuition of falseness: Pascal's Wager not only tells you to worship God to be on the safe side, it tells you which one to worship: the one with the worst hell, because that's the one you most can't afford to be wrong about. Therefore, if you discover a religion with a worse hell than the one you subscribe to, you should believe that one, because your fate will be worse if you don't and it is the correct religion.

Would you find 'our hell is worse than yours' a compelling argument for conversion?

If there are multiple "believe or damned" choices, look fro the one that is true.

But that does not help the atheist or the agnostic and his risk of infinite loss.

(October 1, 2013 at 12:46 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Xpastor's analogy is a good one, except that religion is like four people playing poker with no cards, and they're all bluffing to each other about holding a royal flush.

The best analogy to Pascal's wager I can think of is a true gambling story.

Canada hosted the Summer Olympics in 1976. To help with the funding the federal government ran a lottery with a prize of $1 million for the first time in Canadian history.

Some poor schmuck was convinced that if he bought enough tickets he had to win. So he mortgaged his house. After all these years I can't swear to the amount he spent, but $40,000 sticks in my mind. Of course he didn't win the big prize. He may have got a couple of $100 prizes.

I can't remember either if he offed himself, but he sure was pissed.

(October 1, 2013 at 2:07 pm)_xenu_ Wrote:

(October 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: Well you do have a point that in this world the Christian may be wasting his life if he is wrong. But most Christians live fairly good, happy lives so I am not sure it is so bad.

But the possible infinite loss of the atheist and agnostic may not be worth the imagined temporary gain in this life.

You're cherry picking the easiest question/problem and ignoring a dozen others in just the last page or so, and even the one you 'answered' has validity based on the odds of any god existing. May I ask what your purpose here is?

There is just me and way too many questions to be answered.

Most are just a brush off or more of the same question.

I wish I could do more, but time does not permit it.

And someone please tell me how you get from "OK, I'll believe in God just in case" to "We need to ban abortion and persecute those sinful gays." So is God going to be OK with me being a tolerant, liberal Christian, or does he send anyone to hell unless they're a raging, foaming-at-the-mouth fire-and-brimstone fundie?

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(October 1, 2013 at 3:04 pm)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: There is just me and way too many questions to be answered.

Most are just a brush off or more of the same question.

I wish I could do more, but time does not permit it.

I really wish you could answer my question as to why I would want to worship a being which would threaten me with an eternity of torment?

(October 1, 2013 at 2:10 pm)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: As to the sanctimonious, the saved do not believe that they deserve heaven at all.

No true Scotsman fallacy, and doesn't matter what 'opinion' you have of yourself or others. Odin is the only god, sorry, but you can't party in Valhalla tonight. How very christian of you for "believing that they [don't] deserve heaven". And FYI, you're sanctimonious. Where does that leave you?

Quote:But they believe that God has provided mercy through Jesus Christ crucified for our sins.

Believe, believe. How about knowing?

Quote:I agree that God does not save the sanctimonious. If you have not read the gospel accounts, Jesus Christ had the harshest condemnation for the sanctimonious. You would probably agree with Jesus Christ and his view on the self righteous hypocrites.

Oh, I can agree with J-boy (just I much as I agree that Dumbledore made a wonderful point in saying: "To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." ), the hilarity is that you don't see your own hypocrisy. Now how was that pot/kettle thing put in the bible.. Oh, I remember: "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?".

(October 1, 2013 at 3:02 pm)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: But that does not help the atheist or the agnostic and his risk of infinite loss.

Okay, I pointed this out to you several pages ago, complete with an infographic, so I can only assume you just ignored it because you can't refute it, like a good coward would, but you also are risking infinite loss.

Didn't believe in the muslim god and they turned out to be correct? Whoops, hell!

Are you a protestant and the catholic god is correct? Whoops, hell!

What if you die and find that god really hates Pascal's Wager? Whoops, hell!

You are risking just as much as we are. How hard is this to understand?