(October 2, 2013 at 9:44 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: This to me, borders on the height of irrationality. Let me give my views, look at some common responses, and answer to those.

By definition, under Atheism, this is the ONLY life we have, therefore, every second is precious. Why would you waste precious time debating about a being you don't believe exists? Isnt it a real waste of your life?

I have been told that under Atheism, the meaning of life is subjective. That is, you give your own meaning to your own life. If playing the piano gives meaning to the pianist, then so be it. If playing baseball gives someone meaning, then good luck to them. If helping friends and family gives you meaning in life, then good luck to them. We cannot tell them it is wrong. It is subjective and gives them meaning. If Christianity gives people meaning in their lives, then who is anyone to tell them no? Why spend time arguing something that gives people meaning in their life?

Now, here are some of the common objections I get.

"Religious get tax breaks, they shouldn't." , Well, a major function of the Christian Church is charitable works. Like every other charity, why shouldn't the Christian church also get tax breaks as a major function of their work is charity.

"Because they impact on policy". Well, I agree church and state should be separated, however, why just like every other person, don't Christians also have the right to voice their opinion? Aren't people all for freedom of speech? Doesn't everyone have a right to voice their opinion? However, once this goes to govt, it becomes more of a question of politics rather than philosophy/theology.

"Religion stuns scientific thought / discovery", well some of our greatest scientists have been Theists. Science is the study of the natural world. The gospels do not tell us that we should not observe the world. Under Theology, God gave us rational minds to observe the universe. Science is built on the very foundation of Christianity. Dr Francis Collins was the director of the genome project to find cures for disease.

These are just a few.

Why? Um look at what the Republican party is trying to do to women's rights and voting rights in America. Look at what has been done in the name of the Christian god to blacks and native Americans and women and gays. And what do you think happens to atheists like me?

Why? For the same reason both you and I are affected by the beliefs of Islamic nuts who blow themselves up and slam planes into buildings.

I really would like to not give a shit, but when the "parties of God", as Christopher Hitchens put it, use the only planet I live on for their childish game of capture the flag, with deadly results, DAMNED FUCKING RIGHT I care. You think it is "irrational" to care about how others can affect you?

This is merely another stupid argument to avoid any challenge to your belief.

If the fans of all three death cults could find another planet to live on, I wouldn't have to give a shit. But all three mix weapons and religion and put me in the middle of their pissing contest.

Well, I am not a Muslim. I believe Islam is false, But that is another topic.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: Well, we have seen , an absence of religious belief has been the biggest destruction in terms of killings in human history.

Joseph Stalin killed over 20 million people
Mao Zedong killed 45 million...
Pol Pot killed around 1.7 million.

Oh dear, oh dear, sorry, had to say that twice there. Their atheism had the same amount of influence over their killings than their facial hair did. It was not done in the name of atheism. On the other hand all those people killed in the bible were killed because god said so. They were killed in the name of god. And have you ever heard of the crusades? Maybe you wanna look those up. What about the witches being killed in africa right now. Do some research you dumb fuck.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: ver, how can the teachings of Jesus be reconciled to killing someone? Killing and then attributing it to the teachings of Christianity is as non sequitur as me killing someone and saying I am doing it in the name of the New York Yankees.

What the fuck is this bullshit?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: [b]No, the bible does not tell us to kill non believers. I am not sure where you got that from.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NA
You are a fucking idiot who hasn't read their own holy book. Educate yourself.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: Some of the greatest scientists have been Theists. As I said, science is built on the foundation of Christianity. Science owes a lot to Christianity.

No, science owes a lot to scientists who happened to be christian. You know they set out to affirm their faith but when all evidence pointed against it, they accepted it.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:49 am)Tortino Wrote:

(October 2, 2013 at 9:44 am)Brian37 Wrote: Why? Um look at what the Republican party is trying to do to women's rights and voting rights in America. Look at what has been done in the name of the Christian god to blacks and native Americans and women and gays. And what do you think happens to atheists like me?

Why? For the same reason both you and I are affected by the beliefs of Islamic nuts who blow themselves up and slam planes into buildings.

I really would like to not give a shit, but when the "parties of God", as Christopher Hitchens put it, use the only planet I live on for their childish game of capture the flag, with deadly results, DAMNED FUCKING RIGHT I care. You think it is "irrational" to care about how others can affect you?

This is merely another stupid argument to avoid any challenge to your belief.

If the fans of all three death cults could find another planet to live on, I wouldn't have to give a shit. But all three mix weapons and religion and put me in the middle of their pissing contest.

Well, I am not a Muslim. I believe Islam is false, But that is another topic.

Congratulations, I also believe Islam is false. But hate to burst your bubble but "poof" babies don't work as claims for me since I know that it takes TWO sets of DNA to make a baby. So unless your invisible sky daddy is willing to pony up with a sample of godsperm, I think you are screwed.

You have a comic book that creates men out of dirt, women out of ribs, treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light, talking snakes and donkeys. And a magic man who commits a fake suicide for his own selfish self glorification.

Listing to one fan of one religion point to another superstition would be like being at a si fi convention listing to a Star Trek fan point at a Star Wars fan and say "Yea, The Force is stupid".

The only difference between you and me is that I reject one more god claim than you do. Understand why you reject Allah as a claim and you will understand why I reject your claims as well.

It was understandable that Christians and Muslisms and Jews believed that crap back then. But it is 2013 and when you know the earth is a globe and not flat, and still insist on pretending it is flat, you look stupid.

In my opinion it not as much as arguing a deities existence (it might be for some) at least for me anyway. It is more about the fact these religions claim absolute truth, such a claim requires scrunity. It is the fact that religion attempt to be above objective analysis that makes it such a threat to reason and progress of the human mind.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:49 am)Rationalman Wrote:

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: Well, we have seen , an absence of religious belief has been the biggest destruction in terms of killings in human history.

Joseph Stalin killed over 20 million people
Mao Zedong killed 45 million...
Pol Pot killed around 1.7 million.

Oh dear, oh dear, sorry, had to say that twice there. Their atheism had the same amount of influence over their killings than their facial hair did. It was not done in the name of atheism. On the other hand all those people killed in the bible were killed because god said so. They were killed in the name of god. And have you ever heard of the crusades? Maybe you wanna look those up. What about the witches being killed in africa right now. Do some research you dumb fuck.

[b]LOL hit a nerve did i ? Question, why did you cut off the rest of my comment where I specifically said "Did their lack of belief cause them to kill? Who knows, but no direct link can be made". You don't want to misquote me do now do you? The bottom line is that we have seen that in the absence of religious belief, we have seen the biggest atrocities in human history. So religion is the least of your worries.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: ver, how can the teachings of Jesus be reconciled to killing someone? Killing and then attributing it to the teachings of Christianity is as non sequitur as me killing someone and saying I am doing it in the name of the New York Yankees.[/b]

What the fuck is this bullshit?

You do realise the Christians are not bound by the mosaic law? Comparing Christianity to the new covenant is like comparing chalk and cheese.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

This was a manual for priests. You do realise that this was written as a law, like today, for people who perform evil acts. Like the death penalty today.

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Yep, these are all sins. However, Christians are not bound by this law today. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: No, the bible does not tell us to kill non believers. I am not sure where you got that from.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NA
You are a fucking idiot who hasn't read their own holy book. Educate yourself.

[b]LOL, again, this is a clear statement that you do not understand Christianity. Jesus fulfilled the mosaic law. This did not apply since Christ was crucified. This is not relevant to Christianity.

(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: Some of the greatest scientists have been Theists. As I said, science is built on the foundation of Christianity. Science owes a lot to Christianity.

No, science owes a lot to scientists who happened to be christian. You know they set out to affirm their faith but when all evidence pointed against it, they accepted it.

Really? do you know anything about how science started?

---

(October 2, 2013 at 9:59 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(October 2, 2013 at 9:49 am)Tortino Wrote: Well, I am not a Muslim. I believe Islam is false, But that is another topic.

Congratulations, I also believe Islam is false. But hate to burst your bubble but "poof" babies don't work as claims for me since I know that it takes TWO sets of DNA to make a baby. So unless your invisible sky daddy is willing to pony up with a sample of godsperm, I think you are screwed.

You have a comic book that creates men out of dirt, women out of ribs, treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light, talking snakes and donkeys. And a magic man who commits a fake suicide for his own selfish self glorification.

Listing to one fan of one religion point to another superstition would be like being at a si fi convention listing to a Star Trek fan point at a Star Wars fan and say "Yea, The Force is stupid".

The only difference between you and me is that I reject one more god claim than you do. Understand why you reject Allah as a claim and you will understand why I reject your claims as well.

It was understandable that Christians and Muslisms and Jews believed that crap back then. But it is 2013 and when you know the earth is a globe and not flat, and still insist on pretending it is flat, you look stupid.

WOW, what a crushing rebuttal. Well done!!

---

(October 2, 2013 at 10:04 am)bladevalant546 Wrote: In my opinion it not as much as arguing a deities existence (it might be for some) at least for me anyway. It is more about the fact these religions claim absolute truth, such a claim requires scrunity. It is the fact that religion attempt to be above objective analysis that makes it such a threat to reason and progress of the human mind.

Each religion has their doctrine and the most logical thing to do is go through each claim and come up with your own conclusion. If you don't believe in anyone of them, then at least you tired.

Threat to human reason? Give us examples.

Quote:Each religion has their doctrine and the most logical thing to do is go through each claim and come up with your own conclusion. If you don't believe in anyone of them, then at least you tired.

Threat to human reason? Give us examples.

Fair Question, I agree it is good to go through each claim. It is important to find the old question "What is Truth". However, to make such a journey you have to drop all affiliations and bias, or else you will not examine each claim objectively. Also, you have to discount all antidotal evidence, personal experience claims, and presuppositions in order to make an objective analysis. While you will claim you have objectively analyzed your faith. I feel from my own claims when I was a Christian, you have avoided the toughest issues pertaining to your faith. I am not saying this to make you doubt (as it is not my intention to tell you what to believe) I hope you understand that your lenses that you see world through is fueled by a deep need and only a stimuli that equals or surpasses that need will make you see the world more objectively.

Now the second part of your statement, there is plenty of evidence to support that religious absolutism has affected reason and human mental progress. Islam being the most recent, with their issues of believing in the Hadiths (which are books outside the Quran) and various interpretations we seen this keep the middle east in the dark ages basically. We see the rise of the Young earth Creationist movement born out of the 7th day Adventist Church. Which is totally anti-science and for some reason believed regardless of the mountains of evidence against it. The rejection of evolution (by most Christians) even though it has little to do with religion or god. Religion in politics forcing their religious morals (notice religious morals not evolutionary morals) on the common man, such as abortion (I have my own convictions on that, gay rights, views on the poor, and income inequality that list can go on. Then there is the apathetic view towards the environment as most Christians believe pollution and manmade ecological destruction is a conspiracy. Then finally the indoctrination of children, yes indoctrination will you allow your children to learn of other religions/beliefs in a non-bias light? I can go on however, it would be redundant. While I do not think the beliefs in religion hold things back, it is the activism that a lot of it entails that is the issue here and the claims it publically makes.

I don't argue for the nonexistence of things. How absurd. Do I like refuting claims that aren't backed by demonstrable evidence? Hell yeah!

(October 2, 2013 at 10:05 am)Tortino Wrote:

(October 2, 2013 at 9:49 am)Rationalman Wrote: Oh dear, oh dear, sorry, had to say that twice there. Their atheism had the same amount of influence over their killings than their facial hair did. It was not done in the name of atheism. On the other hand all those people killed in the bible were killed because god said so. They were killed in the name of god. And have you ever heard of the crusades? Maybe you wanna look those up. What about the witches being killed in africa right now. Do some research you dumb fuck.

LOL hit a nerve did i ? Question, why did you cut off the rest of my comment where I specifically said "Did their lack of belief cause them to kill? Who knows, but no direct link can be made". You don't want to misquote me do now do you? The bottom line is that we have seen that in the absence of religious belief, we have seen the biggest atrocities in human history. So religion is the least of your worries.



What the fuck is this bullshit?

You do realise the Christians are not bound by the mosaic law? Comparing Christianity to the new covenant is like comparing chalk and cheese.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

This was a manual for priests. You do realise that this was written as a law, like today, for people who perform evil acts. Like the death penalty today.

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Yep, these are all sins. However, Christians are not bound by this law today. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law.





They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NA
You are a fucking idiot who hasn't read their own holy book. Educate yourself.

LOL, again, this is a clear statement that you do not understand Christianity. Jesus fulfilled the mosaic law. This did not apply since Christ was crucified. This is not relevant to Christianity.

No, science owes a lot to scientists who happened to be christian. You know they set out to affirm their faith but when all evidence pointed against it, they accepted it.

Really? do you know anything about how science started?

---

(October 2, 2013 at 9:59 am)Brian37 Wrote: Congratulations, I also believe Islam is false. But hate to burst your bubble but "poof" babies don't work as claims for me since I know that it takes TWO sets of DNA to make a baby. So unless your invisible sky daddy is willing to pony up with a sample of godsperm, I think you are screwed.

You have a comic book that creates men out of dirt, women out of ribs, treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light, talking snakes and donkeys. And a magic man who commits a fake suicide for his own selfish self glorification.

Listing to one fan of one religion point to another superstition would be like being at a si fi convention listing to a Star Trek fan point at a Star Wars fan and say "Yea, The Force is stupid".

The only difference between you and me is that I reject one more god claim than you do. Understand why you reject Allah as a claim and you will understand why I reject your claims as well.

It was understandable that Christians and Muslisms and Jews believed that crap back then. But it is 2013 and when you know the earth is a globe and not flat, and still insist on pretending it is flat, you look stupid.

WOW, what a crushing rebuttal. Well done!!

---

(October 2, 2013 at 10:04 am)bladevalant546 Wrote: In my opinion it not as much as arguing a deities existence (it might be for some) at least for me anyway. It is more about the fact these religions claim absolute truth, such a claim requires scrunity. It is the fact that religion attempt to be above objective analysis that makes it such a threat to reason and progress of the human mind.

Each religion has their doctrine and the most logical thing to do is go through each claim and come up with your own conclusion. If you don't believe in anyone of them, then at least you tired.

Threat to human reason? Give us examples.

Your book is a comic book. Not only that it is a weapon. Dark ages, witch hunts, slavery of blacks, genocide of native Americans, denial of equal rights for gays.

It's fans shit on evolution which is a fact even after being bitch slapped with the Scopes Monkey trial, and most recently the Dover "ID" trial.

On top of it being a comic book, the head character "God" is unmovable. You cannot vote him out of office. You cannot change his laws. You have no say. Your only goal is to kiss his ass. You cannot impeach him or have him arrested. It is the opposite of pluralistic modern society. He has more in common with dictators than prime ministers or presidents ellected via consent of the governed.

Religion teaches you to swallow first, not question to insure quality of data. It is the opposite of reason. Reason is going where the evidence leads, not where you want it to go.

Each religion DOES have it's own doctrine, so? The motifs people claim to be good in those doctrines, are in reality, a product of evolution, not an invention of one club.

Doing good and being good is something humans have always displayed, and doing bad and being bad ALSO have been something humans have displayed. Nothing about our species existence requires superstition or religious clubs to explain.

I don't spend enough time debating the existence of the god, though my family and friends would disagree. It comes from a place of care and consideration mixed with rage and a sense of wanting to protect my loved ones from ignorance. No, I don't have rage against the god, since he is to me as Santa is to you. I have rage against bigotry, arrogance (like when people pray for the hungry instead of feeding them), guilt trip showers, and slavery to a hoax. Contrary to what people think, much of the time atheists invest in this, whatever that amount of time might be, is related to care. If we didn't care, we would not mind it while the world continues to drool over bird poop in a cone.

Well, in my case, anyway.

In short, because I care.

Brian I disagree....most comic book worlds I wish to be real okay.....super powers are bad ass. (sorry I had to do one ADHD comment.)