(October 3, 2013 at 5:56 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(October 3, 2013 at 5:31 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Using your own example, the atheist position would look like "Well, I don't see enough proof that you're a movie star. Therefore you're not a movie star."

No, you're totally misrepresenting what atheism is about. The atheist position would be "I don't see enough proof you're a movie star, so I don't believe that you are who you say you are."

You keep falling into this illogical conclusion that an atheist is only an atheist if they claim that no gods can or ever will exist. If you can't understand that atheism is only being without belief in a god, then you're either being willfully ignorant, unable to understand basic concepts, or just being stubborn on purpose.

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(October 3, 2013 at 5:39 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Who cares what you believe?

OK, so I vote for willful ignorance mixed with being stubborn on purpose. As such, since you're not willing to learn what atheism really is, there's no more reason to talk to you.

What you're describing sounds like agnosticism, not atheism.

You may not believe THAT a deity of some sort exists. But you're fully open to the possibility that a deity could exist. That it could be of one particular religion, and that any one of these religions could be true. That your own decision to be an atheist could be a stupid one.

In principle, what you're calling atheism entails all of the above possibilities.

And don't you even try to tell me the possibilities are unlikely. You haven't done the math on them.

(October 3, 2013 at 6:10 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: What you're describing sounds like agnosticism, not atheism.

You may not believe THAT a deity of some sort exists. But you're fully open to the possibility that a deity could exist. That it could be of one particular religion, and that any one of these religions could be true. That your own decision to be an atheist could be a stupid one.

In principle, what you're calling atheism entails all of the above possibilities.

And don't you even try to tell me the possibilities are unlikely. You haven't done the math on them.

Atheism and agnosticism are NOT mutually exclusive positions. The vast majority of atheists do not claim to know, with absolute certainty, that a god does not exist.

Atheism is a position that concerns lack BELIEF.
Agnosticism is a position that concerns what is unknown or unknowable.

Belief is the physiological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition to be true. There are only 2 positions: either one accepts the premise that a god exists is true, or they don't accept it. If one accepts the premise that a god exists is true, they are a theist. ANYTHING else is atheism.

Atheism for most atheists is a provisional position, not a dogmatic one. My atheism will continue as long as there continues to be insufficient evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim that a god exists. I am open to the possibility that a god exists.

Burden of proof means having enough information to reject the null hypothesis.

In that sense, everyone talks about the burden of proof all the time. It is the basis for statistics.

(October 3, 2013 at 6:30 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(October 3, 2013 at 6:10 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: What you're describing sounds like agnosticism, not atheism.

You may not believe THAT a deity of some sort exists. But you're fully open to the possibility that a deity could exist. That it could be of one particular religion, and that any one of these religions could be true. That your own decision to be an atheist could be a stupid one.

In principle, what you're calling atheism entails all of the above possibilities.

And don't you even try to tell me the possibilities are unlikely. You haven't done the math on them.

Atheism and agnosticism are NOT mutually exclusive positions. The vast majority of atheists do not claim to know, with absolute certainty, that a god does not exist.

Atheism is a position that concerns lack BELIEF.
Agnosticism is a position that concerns what is unknown or unknowable.

Belief is the physiological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition to be true. There are only 2 positions: either one accepts the premise that a god exists is true, or they don't accept it. If one accepts the premise that a god exists is true, they are a theist. ANYTHING else is atheism.

Atheism for most atheists is a provisional position, not a dogmatic one. My atheism will continue as long as there continues to be insufficient evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim that a god exists. I am open to the possibility that a god exists.

Are you an atheist poe? How old are you?

(October 3, 2013 at 9:44 pm)TheBeardedDude Wrote: Burden of proof means having enough information to reject the null hypothesis.

In that sense, everyone talks about the burden of proof all the time. It is the basis for statistics.

Burden of proof does not include demanding the other person do your homework for you.

Vinny, what you're doing would be like this:

Atheist: Christians think they can only get to heaven by drinking the blood of babies.
Christian: That's not true, we believe X, Y, and Z.
Atheist: Who cares what you say you believe? Christians think they can only get to heaven by drinking the blood of babies.

I can see that no matter how often it's going to be pointed out to you, you're going to keep believing in this wrong idea of what you think atheism is, so as I said there's no more reason to talk to you. You're being both willfully ignorant and arrogantly stubborn (or is that stubbornly arrogant?) and you're not willing to listen to us about what we really believe.

(October 3, 2013 at 5:39 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote:

(October 3, 2013 at 5:33 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Actually, it would be more like 'I don't see enough proof that you're a movie star. Therefore I don't believe you're a movie star."

Who cares what you believe?

What really matters is whether or not movie stars exist. And whether movie stars can log into chatrooms.

Reasonable people say both are unlikely. But at least they are possible.

Since atheism is only about not believing something and that is the concept you seem unable to grasp, belief is both highly relevant to the topic, and something you can't see the relevance of because of the blinders you're wearing.

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(October 3, 2013 at 9:49 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Are you an atheist poe? How old are you?

I'm sure you could think of a classier way of admitting that you've heard all that before, many times, from many different atheists, and that you can't accept it because then your arguments would collapse.

(October 3, 2013 at 9:49 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Are you an atheist poe? How old are you?

Just because you have a problem understanding the difference between KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF doesn't mean you have to take your ignorance out on others.

Let me spell it out for you.

I do not claim to know, with absolute certainty, that a god or gods do not exist. This defines me as agnostic.

Since there is insufficient evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim that a god exists, I do not hold the belief that they do exist. This defines me as an atheist.

What don't you understand?

Why is it that both Vinny G. and Rational AKD both seem to have trouble understanding that? Maybe someone needs to check their IP numbers...

(October 4, 2013 at 1:20 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Why is it that both Vinny G. and Rational AKD both seem to have trouble understanding that? Maybe someone needs to check their IP numbers...

Maybe it's time to d-d-d-d-d-d-d-trace their routes!