(October 10, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(October 10, 2013 at 1:18 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: FNM said that free will violated doctrine. I replied that New Church doctrine was not violated and presented a summary of the doctrine. Whether the doctrine was actually revealed or not was never the issue.

I didn't say it violated church doctrine. I said the claim is paradoxical with the concept of Christian heaven. The free will defense states that evil is necessary for free will to exist, but heaven is a clear example of that not being true. No matter how you try to spin it, the free will defense and Christian heaven cannot co-exist unless you are willing to claim there is no free will in heaven.

First you have it backwards. Free will is a prerequisite to evil not the reverse. You can still freely choose between various goods.

(October 10, 2013 at 2:32 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: First you have it backwards. Free will is a prerequisite to evil not the reverse. You can still freely choose between various goods.

That doesn't make any sense. The whole problem is that evil exists, and the defense is that evil is the consequence of allowing free will. If free will is a prerequisite to evil, that means the defense is baseless.

You must have free will before you can choose. Prior to choice, evil exists only in potential and not in actuality. We now see actual evil that resulted from freely made poor choices.

(October 10, 2013 at 3:56 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You must have free will before you can choose. Prior to choice, evil exists only in potential and not in actuality. We now see actual evil that resulted from freely made poor choices.

Are you then trying to claim that potential evil exists in heaven?

(October 10, 2013 at 5:29 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(October 10, 2013 at 3:56 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You must have free will before you can choose. Prior to choice, evil exists only in potential and not in actuality. We now see actual evil that resulted from freely made poor choices.

Are you then trying to claim that potential evil exists in heaven?

Yes. That's from whence fallen angels come.

Quote:Yes. That's from whence fallen angels come.

Seriously? Angels? Do you also believe in goblins, pookas, leprechauns, and the like?

Boru

(October 10, 2013 at 12:48 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: There's actually a pretty well-known thought experiment which demonstrate that God could create a world free from evil, without violating anyone's free will. Consider:

You have a planet with a stable population of 1000 individuals. Half of them will always freely choose evil acts, half will always freely choose good acts. Each day, God removes from this world one of the evil people. In 500 days, there will be no one left but people who freely choose good 100% of the time.

Going forward, God omnisciently knows which children born on this world will be good and which will be evil. God simply prevents the conception of those who will be evil. The population of the world will always consist of people who choose to never commit an evil act. The result is a world free from evil in which no one's free will has been violated.

Thus, assuming that God prefers good acts to evil ones, the free will defense doesn't get God of the hook. Since God COULD prevent moral evil simply by permitting only the existence of those people whom God knows beforehand will never, ever commit an evil act, God is responsible for moral evil. Remember, God isn't constraining people to act in a good manner, he isn't mucking about with free will - he is simply not allowing evil acts to be performed by making sure that people who perform them don't exist.

One could make a similar argument that God is equally culpable for natural evil.

Boru

Even better. God has a good nature. God has free will. God freely never does moral evil of his own free will. A perfectly good God will freely will to eliminate moral evil if he can.

So he would create mankind with a god-like good nature and a god-like free will. There for we will have no moral evil in the world. We have moral evil. Therefor a God with a good nature and free will does nor exist.

The Bible and Quran et al states God is good and has free will. Fatal contradiction.

Now consider Rene Descartes and William of Okham. Both stated God is truly omnipotent. God creates the laws and rules and metaphysical necessities of the Universe such as 2 + 2 = 4. God could makes 2 + 2 = 5 if he so desired.
Anselm stated God is so great that nothing greater can be imagined. Which is the greatest God imaginable? A god who creates the logic of the Universe or is constrained by the Universes inherent logic outside God and beyond his control or creation? Obviously a God that creates the logic and rules and laws of the Universe.

Any problem giving man a god-like free will and good nature can easily be overcome by God by changing the nature of the Universe and so any reason any theist might try to give why there is evil is unviable from the start.

Obviously that God does not exist. But either way we logically establish naturalism, the existent metaphysical necessities and rules and laws of the Universe are outside of God's control, cannot have been created by God, and make God superfluous. This naturalism does the heavy lifting of creating the Universe as it is.

And God is not outside logic, and there is no superlogic for God, so no mysterious reason or Godly inscrutability to save appearances for this logically failed god. God is limited to the same everyday logic we use, stripping all the theoretical special pleading made for God by theists.

The most powerful God imaginable collapses utterly and naturalism is strongly proven.

Cheerful Charlie

(October 10, 2013 at 7:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Seriously? Angels? Do you also believe in goblins, pookas, leprechauns, and the like?

I believe in The True Pooka. I'm subscribed to his YT channel.

There is no such thing as "free will". Neuroscience has proven decisions are made before we are conscious of them. They are composed of elements, many of which are subconscious. (Proven by PET scans, and MRI scans.)
One cannot be "free" to do anything, if one is constrained in any way by their past, or anything in the nature of reality.
Free will is an illusion, which has been debunked.
Please do try to join the 21st Century.

Again and again I hear how good and evil must exist together to bring a balance to free will. If that is true, then how can heaven exist? Theoretically, only good people can exist in heaven. If all anyone can do there is good, where is free will?

Ah, but CW said there are fallen angels. So why is heaven promised to only the good when there will be evil there? Is that paradise? No, it sounds like life will continue on, with no change. Heaven is implausible.

On another note, can people have children in heaven? Being with children they created is paradise to many. But procreation brings jealousy, lust and desire. Those are evils that can ruin the "paradise" of heaven. If evil is in heaven, it can't be paradise, but heaven can't exist without evil. WTF?

Utter nonsense.