(October 17, 2013 at 12:36 am)Aral Gamelon Wrote:

(October 17, 2013 at 12:25 am)Godschild Wrote: What does it matter to you, you didn't understand what He was teaching. To make His point the parable had to be told as it was, simple really.

GC

Don't presume to know what I do or do not understand, as an ex christian the story is well known to me and it's meaning is quite clear.

The point I'm trying to make is that this is one of many inconsistencies in the bible. Sure, any person writing a narrative can make a mistake or not think to have the rules of an alternate reality down pat, but we are talking about a supposedly perfect higher being. Sure it's small fries compared to the rest of them but it's a valid point nonetheless.

Adds to skepticism.

I can presume you know nothing more about the parable than the contradiction you want to make it out to be. If you understood the parable you would know that it had to be presented in the way it was, there is no other way to present the parable. That's why Jesus is smarter than you are.

GC

Bullshit there are plenty of other ways in story telling, that's the beauty of making shit up. There are plenty of different situations Jesus could have put the characters in without causing an inconsistency in the text pertaining to hell, you're just being obstinate about me not 'getting the message'.

For instance, the rich man, in being sentenced to hell could have had his plea bargain with Abraham before being sent there and the story could have gotten it's point across. As far as the anguish and torment represented in the text, used to scare the bejesus (pardon the pun) out of people, it could have just as easily been added into the ending of the tale.

The original parable itself can be taken as a personal warning to the Pharisees whether in disregard to the scriptures or that even a supernatural event (such as a visit from beyond the grave) could not change their hearts. This can also be taken as a message to those of a greedy nature who have much but do not help their fellow man. EDIT: Or even as a message of hope to the downtrodden believer who persists through trials and tribulations that they will be rewarded in heaven as was the beggar.

So to hell with your condescending presumptions, it's just typical theist rage-baiting tactics.

(October 17, 2013 at 1:25 am)Aral Gamelon Wrote: Bullshit there are plenty of other ways in story telling, that's the beauty of making shit up. There are plenty of different situations Jesus could have put the characters in without causing an inconsistency in the text pertaining to hell, you're just being obstinate about me not 'getting the message'.

For instance, the rich man, in being sentenced to hell could have had his plea bargain with Abraham before being sent there and the story could have gotten it's point across. As far as the anguish and torment represented in the text, used to scare the bejesus (pardon the pun) out of people, it could have just as easily been added into the ending of the tale.

The original parable itself can be taken as a personal warning to the Pharisees whether in disregard to the scriptures or that even a supernatural event (such as a visit from beyond the grave) could not change their hearts. This can also be taken as a message to those of a greedy nature who have much but do not help their fellow man. EDIT: Or even as a message of hope to the downtrodden believer who persists through trials and tribulations that they will be rewarded in heaven as was the beggar.

So to hell with your condescending presumptions, it's just typical theist rage-baiting tactics.

How could it be possible for the rich man to have expressed his desire for others not to be where he is without being there, not possible. We would have not had to go this long route around if you had just given your understanding to begin with. Getting atheist to give answers around here is like pulling hens teeth. Good to see you understand this parable and you put it in writing, want be able to use this as an excuse at God's judgement, you do know about God's judgement and excuses, right.

GC

(October 17, 2013 at 1:25 am)Aral Gamelon Wrote: Bullshit there are plenty of other ways in story telling, that's the beauty of making shit up. There are plenty of different situations Jesus could have put the characters in without causing an inconsistency in the text pertaining to hell, you're just being obstinate about me not 'getting the message'.

Unfortunately, Gamelon, you're wasting your breath on GC: Obstinance is essentially his ground state of being. He won't provide any evidence for his interpretation of the passage, he won't take anything you say on board, and he certainly won't ever admit to being wrong. He'll just assume that, by virtue of him saying it, his view is correct, and by definition, yours must be wrong.

Happily, claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

(October 16, 2013 at 5:18 am)Tonus Wrote: Yes, I am serious. I see many references to hell being "separation from god" but no specifics as to what it means. Are the souls of those people in a particular place, and what is that place like? And what is the basis for the claim?

it's a place where some people and 1/3 of angelic host occupy in bodily form and these spiritual beings (and as such have eternal existence) are there because above everything else they want freedom from God's rule and from the restraint of their conscience. so God yields to their desires. one main solace they have is they don't regret their rebellion.
God nature doesn't allow 'torment'; the 'torment' mentioned is the restraint placed on entities to commit evil on others; the more evil they demonstrated prior to this abode the more restraint. So God is still omnipresent but His influence is withdrawn. activities? don't know.
how they got there is another subject. the moderator may not allow that discussion....

(October 17, 2013 at 1:57 am)Godschild Wrote:

(October 17, 2013 at 1:25 am)Aral Gamelon Wrote: Bullshit there are plenty of other ways in story telling, that's the beauty of making shit up. There are plenty of different situations Jesus could have put the characters in without causing an inconsistency in the text pertaining to hell, you're just being obstinate about me not 'getting the message'.

For instance, the rich man, in being sentenced to hell could have had his plea bargain with Abraham before being sent there and the story could have gotten it's point across. As far as the anguish and torment represented in the text, used to scare the bejesus (pardon the pun) out of people, it could have just as easily been added into the ending of the tale.

The original parable itself can be taken as a personal warning to the Pharisees whether in disregard to the scriptures or that even a supernatural event (such as a visit from beyond the grave) could not change their hearts. This can also be taken as a message to those of a greedy nature who have much but do not help their fellow man. EDIT: Or even as a message of hope to the downtrodden believer who persists through trials and tribulations that they will be rewarded in heaven as was the beggar.

So to hell with your condescending presumptions, it's just typical theist rage-baiting tactics.

How could it be possible for the rich man to have expressed his desire for others not to be where he is without being there, not possible. We would have not had to go this long route around if you had just given your understanding to begin with. Getting atheist to give answers around here is like pulling hens teeth. Good to see you understand this parable and you put it in writing, want be able to use this as an excuse at God's judgement, you do know about God's judgement and excuses, right.

GC

It's entirely possible. Have you ever seen where an action is heading and instantly regretted it? In this moment with the prospect of being sent to a torturous realm one could certainly have expressed the want to warn others not to follow his fate.

I'm not familiar with this bit about god and excuses, no. Preachers and thumpers around here are pretty cut and dry with the 'fact' that god will send me to hell.

As a non-believer I am thoroughly unconcerned with such statements.

(October 17, 2013 at 3:19 am)snowtracks Wrote: one main solace they have is they don't regret their rebellion.

Then god isn't a very effective punisher. If a child does something really bad, they need to be made to regret that action. None of this helps me take Hell any more seriously. No torment, and no regret? Yawn.

I am fearful of Eternal punishment.And I am afraid to not believe in God because of it.

(October 18, 2013 at 6:43 am)hobie Wrote: I am fearful of Eternal punishment.And I am afraid to not believe in God because of it.

Happily, that's a really easy fear to erase: just ask yourself, how much time have you spent being afraid of any other hell? How afraid are you of the muslim hell? Or any number of additional hells that don't belong to a specific religion but have just as much evidence for them as the christian hell?

Chances are, you don't spend any time at all worrying of the eternal punishment of any religion that isn't from your dominant cultural context. Once you realize that, it'll go some way to showing you how little reason you have to be worrying about the christian hell too.

(October 18, 2013 at 6:43 am)hobie Wrote: I am fearful of Eternal punishment.And I am afraid to not believe in God because of it.

A terrible reason to follow a religion, doncha think? Suck my bowels, or else is literally a shitty position to take as an omni- deity. The good news is it's all made up. The bad news is many people think the same, and herd mentality is hard to overcome.

Stick around, and be unafraid!