Ronedee Wrote:I particularly like yours "Fallen". I think you should be [back] on our side of the street!Big Grin

Thank you except, as you read in my post, I've always been on *this* side of the street, morally speaking
As an agnostic, I don't think your side exists since an explanation of objective morality never gets off the ground :p

(October 17, 2013 at 3:22 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(October 16, 2013 at 8:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: What do you have to answer to? Is there a point to living any kind of "honest" life?

What do I have to answer to? The billions of other people on this planet, and the smaller group of those that I care about and want to be happy. The fact that you don't seem to see this as sufficient is the most telling thing of all.

You always read things [into] what I say that aren't there. Why have any conversation at all?

ASSume everything I say is from your dark, evil perspective and just go away.

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(October 17, 2013 at 5:34 am)Tonus Wrote:

(October 17, 2013 at 12:40 am)ronedee Wrote: Most of you did answer the first question. And interestingly enough, society (or pack) seems to form "reactions" to actions perpetrated! So, if society broken down (total chaos) then for many of you, so would your moral compass. That's probably true for a lot of Christians too! But when we (Christians) are held to a higher source, society is not our standard to live by.

But most Christians will also admit that they cannot possibly meet their own standard, due to the imperfection they inherited from Adam and Eve. Another reminder that the universe "with god" doesn't appear to work any differently than a universe without him. In spite of having a set of moral rules that cover everything from how you act to how you think, and which imply that your life is much better if you follow them all, Christians seem no less fallible than the godless immoral filth that surround them.

So where is the difference, I wonder? It seems to me that a Christian is just as likely to lie his way out of a difficult situation as anyone else, blaming it on "imperfection." And your average non-believer seems no more likely to brutally beat up an old lady than your average Christian, even if he thought he might get away with it. I am thinking that for many crimes (and for many "crimes") the likelihood that one or the other will commit it is not that different. The main difference would be in the justifications afterwards.

Agreed! But generalization isn't fair either! I think we need to really see the motives in a person to see the "real" person!

As an example... Both you and I will react instinctively to an old Lady being beat-up. We won't be weighing our beliefs or lack there of.

I've had two major events happen in my life that put my "goodness" on the line. One I actually saved someones life! It wasn't until days afterwards that I thought how I would've spiritually weighed my options!

So.... we are either essentially good, or not so good...Atheists or Religious! God has little to do with that descision.

"What I have condemned is the closed-mindedness, and persecution of those who love God. "

This is an extremely difficult accusation to respond to without going on the attack but I'll try.

I think the best way is to imagine it was written instead by an atheist on a theist forum:

"What I have condemned is the closed-mindedness, and persecution of those who reject the concept of God."

In either case it is probably to be expected as behaviour bearing in mind that would have been on a theist forum and this is an atheist forum.

Closed mindedness is an accusation that can be hurled from both sides. I could also reverse (as someone has done in their signature on this forum) "Love the sinner, hate the sin, to "Love the believer - hate the belief."

I have to admit I have specific issues with your faith (Christianity - not your personal version of it) for reasons I have spelt out many times on this forum and time and again those reasons resonate back from you and your fellow followers.

My attacking those aspects of your beliefs should not, in my own opinion, be viewed as persecution but I can see how it might appear to be so particularly if the response dredges up other aspects of your religion that I despise.

I genuinely do not see persecution, although I am sure you do. I do see adverse reactions to anything that comes across as preachy / holier than thou / condescending etc.

(October 17, 2013 at 10:40 am)ronedee Wrote: So.... we are either essentially good, or not so good...Atheists or Religious! God has little to do with that descision.

I think you're entirely correct here, except that I don't think we're "essentially" goo or not so good. The idea of a "bad seed" gene has been floating around for a long time, but it's never gone anywhere. We are raised as we are raised, in a particular cultural ethos that may or may not allow room for dissent. If you were raised to believe that women should be castrated, and you had never had any opportunity to see a dissenting view, you'd probably be defending that practice. Me,too. I often wonder what I would be if I had been born to rich Southern slave-holding plantation family. I'd love to believe I would have been an abolitionist, but that's probably not realistic, given the ethos I would have been steeped in since birth. We are taught our morality, and if our culture is an open enough one, we can stray from that to greater and lesser degrees depending on our level of indoctrination.

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: As 'atheists' aren't a homologous group, it depends entirely on the atheist in question. As you've seen from the posts, there are quite a number of views out there. I'm yet to see one from the nihilistic perspective but I'm sure it's on the way!

Which then leads me to wonder about your accusations?

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Generally, I find that people want to get along, irrespective of their religious beliefs (I'm in the UK). Consequently those people agree generally on many rules of behaviour which stem from socialised empathy.

Generally here too!

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Atheists are neither naturally cynical nor nasty. This simply indicates that your main purpose in this thread is to misrepresent or create a negative stereotype of 'atheists'.

Besides my emphsis on the word [here].... I'm guessing you don't spend much time "here"? Generally it's hard forming ideas and relationships w/ atheists when you are being called "jerks" and worse, constantly. Maybe its different in the UK?

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Given that you believe in 'god-given' morality, that's a very ambiguous definition. But now I think about it, god's not always very clear on what he considers moral so I guess some ambiguity is to be expected.

Curious isn't it: it almost seems like god's morality is... well, subjective.

I don't see anything ambigous about the Ten Commandments.

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: ...and yet that makes little/no difference to the christians who commit crimes. It's almost as if punitive justice systems don't work as much of a deterrent. You don't think that god's 'perfect' justice might be a little... well, faulty?

God's? Or what man percieves as God's?

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Yes. In fact, there are so many that I don't have time right now to list them all.

Really? A moral list? "Good" would be all that is necessary. And easy to remember.

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Sorry, which words? And who said them? Is this 'you' misgeneralising atheists as a homologous group again?

Just read any replies by your compadres to any religious! I guarantee you'll not need to go far!

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: And I've witnessed some soil. It made me do a dance. What's your point? You've just posted your comments without interruption or censorship so any claims of persecution must be false.

Claims? Again your head is planted squarely in ... the darkness as far as your reality of what is going on here! Or do you just like being contrary?

(October 17, 2013 at 9:35 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Personally, the 'golden rule' is an important factor as are other generalisations regarding enhancement of well-being but I've experienced so many exceptions as to understand that morality must, by necessity, be contextual. Since catholic doctrine includes much interpretation of god's morality, your church demonstrates the same understanding.

Ahhhh.... and finally we get to the answer for my question. Unfortunately, you've said more about God and religious motives, inaccurately I might add.... then your own perspective!

I'll wait for your "list"!

(October 17, 2013 at 10:40 am)ronedee Wrote: Agreed! But generalization isn't fair either! I think we need to really see the motives in a person to see the "real" person!

I just think the generalization is along the lines of "this is what people do" than it is "this is what Christians do" or "this is what atheists do." I think that on most of the larger moral and ethical issues (killing, sexual crimes, honesty) people will tend to agree because societies experience more harmony and less chaos that way. And once we have those agreed upon, we can afford to quibble on the others (swearing, rap music, porn). I think that while the discussion often revolves around accusations of the larger issues, those are the ones we tend to agree on. It's the lesser ones that are the real bone of contention.

And while religion serves as something of a backdrop to some of it, it also seems to be part of our psychological makeup. As they get older, children seem driven to defy their parents. Did so many young ladies swoon over Elvis because they saw him gyrating his hips, or was it because they saw how their parents reacted to it?

(October 16, 2013 at 8:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: Back to the subject at hand! Given the natural cynicism and nastiness of Atheists [here] in general... is there any reason to live a "Moral" life?

You wonder why atheists have a go at you? Really? With a statement like that is impossible not to have a go at you.
See the problem with theists, is that they come on here, onto our forum. Most of the time, they are incredibly ignorant of the things they talk about, particularly science in general. Despite being told that they do not understand the particular scientific theory (mainly evolution and abiogenesis) they carry on and ignore us. Thats one of the things that pisses us off. We can take the ignorance but the arrogance to claim you know what you are talking about when you clearly don't....
Even when we provide scientific, peer reviewed papers, they don't listen. And then they send back a link for some ridiculous creationist website which is neither peer-reviewed or scientific in any way.
Also theists like you ronedee, come on here and sometimes don't even realize that what you say is offensive. Other times you do.
One more thing, theists (particularly christians) come onto this forum with a severe persecution complex. It is incredibly aggravating to witness this as christianity is the dominant religion in western cultures and they are always trying to impose their beliefs on other people. And even then, theists create ridiculous strawmen of what we believe and what we are like. Apparently we have no morals, we eat babies, we are evil, we serve satan, we hate god.
Please guys, add to this if you think i've missed anything out (which I surely have)

(October 17, 2013 at 12:03 pm)Rationalman Wrote: Please guys, add to this if you think i've missed anything out (which I surely have)

Ronedee has come to a very reasonable place in the last few posts- I'd say that deserves a mention.

(October 17, 2013 at 12:09 pm)Zazzy Wrote: Ronedee has come to a very reasonable place in the last few posts- I'd say that deserves a mention.

Forgive me for my pessimism but I don't foresee it lasting very long. However, I do hope that he proves me wrong

"I don't see anything ambigous about the Ten Commandments."

Yes, but in context, how much of a guide to morality are they?

Half of them are for God's benefit the other half include coveting (which really shouldn't be in the top 10 imho) but miss out on slavery, equality, rape, molesting children.... - all of which I would put above bearing false witness, frankly (although that's not a good thing either but top 10?).

Of course we are cherry picking here (even though its not going very well). There are 613 commandments in all in the OT. If you tried to live by those today you would be in prison fairly quickly - and rightly so.

Now I know Christians pick and choose on the rules they follow from the OT - although I have never understood the basis. Dietary rules out, hold onto the anti-gay stuff for example.