(October 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 18, 2013 at 11:47 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I was born an atheist.

You weren't born an atheist you just had other other things to get on with at the time like learning to walk, talk and shit properly and you had to get this out the way before tackling the deeper issues.

I was born with no concept or belief in any sort of deity.

I was born a de facto atheist. You are incorrect.

(October 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Once you were at a more informed state of development you made your choice.

I am continually making choices, continually evaluating claims on a myriad of gods, continually finding them wanting. Pragmatism, look it up.

(October 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

I do not seek to judge the choices of others...unlike some people in this conversation.

(October 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:You've never responded to this statement with anything coherent, rather, equating being born with no belief or concept in any deity to being born unable to be toilet trained (subjective, technically shitting yourself is still being toilet trained, just not to our subjective standard).

Like I said you deal with the basics first then your place in the greater scheme of things and your relationship to God later. Or you decide God God doesn't exist and is some kind of a myth still have an active choice to make.

Wrong again.

I lack any sort of concept of a 'god'. I've never heard a coherent definition that I can conceptualise or agree with since day 0 of my life till now.

(October 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:So, in effect, you're wrong. Everytime you post, you post from a demonstrably incorrect premise, which means most of what you type based on that premise is...well...probably wrong.

If you want to challenge atheism you really have to go straight in for the assertions and assumptions atheists like to make such as "I was born an atheist" or "lack of belief" or "default position". These may as well be doctrines and dogmas that shore up your faith in the belief that you are right and theists are wrong/deluded.

You are wrong for the third time in this one post.

It is laughable that you would equate me stating a fact that I lacked a belief or concept of any sort of deity when I was born to it being a dogma/doctrine. This is nonsensical and I can only assume you've taken leave of your senses.

I have no religious faith. You don't believe me? It doesn't matter one bit, doesn't change the fact that I am correct, and you are not

(October 18, 2013 at 11:07 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: We're not an accident alright?

How many times are you going to attempt to argue from personal incredulity?

Quote: The universe clearly built up toward greater level of precisely arranged complexity over time and we're the most complex objects in the known universe sitting right here this was built around a system of physical laws that had to be 100% perfectly arranged without error.

Actually, this is precisely false. Complexity occurs in isolated clusters which are ultimately transient. The universe, as a whole, is progressing steadily towards thermal equilibrium.

Quote:You're not just saying you don't know whether God exists or not you're saying you don't give a fuck about him if he does, you may as well just not give a fuck about anything then.

Gotta be a bridge to cross before we can cross it.

Quote:No not my god, your God, our God, the God with a capital G. God is the context he is the creator and the reason for existence, everything the whole lot. Without him there is no reason because he is the reason.

Funny how THE God always very conveniently coincides with your god, no matter which strain of theist you speak to.

Quote: If God doesn't exist then there is no such as morality or good and evil we just made it up and everyone's opinion is as valid as anyone else.

Welcome to objective reality.

Quote:If God doesn't exist how are we meant to have freewill?

Who says we were?

Quote:We would be the product of physically explainable processes and we can explain and predict all these processes as they are mechanistically determined.

Seems to be precisely the case, though the mechanism is far too vast in scope for us to make any kind of useful predictions on the individual level.

Quote:If we are created in the image of God then we share in the freewill he has seeing as he is a being beyond the natural order who purposefully created the natural order. We are the product of Gods creation.

That's a mighty big 'if' you've entirely failed to justify.

Quote: There wasn't a time before God created time. God may well have created other universes but they will have their own time streams. God exists beyond time but is relational to it. A bit of William Lane Craig on this subject.

pfsnx

Quote:The Holy Spirit tells you or something, I don't know why does matter what parts are literally true? What matters is whether God exists and whether the Bible is the spiritual tool you can use to commune with this very same God. It's a Holy book that's what it's for.

And so far, no believer has ever successfully demonstrated that it has ever successfully accomplished this purpose.

Quote:It makes sense because it is true and if it wasn't true it wouldn't make much sense but it does makes sense so it is! ARGH!

Just keep on believing, and one day... just kidding, it will still be bullshit.

(October 18, 2013 at 12:58 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: ...
No problem, but babies have no concept of belief or non-belief. To not believe something you have to be aware of belief.

I'm pretty sure I have no belief in lots of things I'm not aware of.

I would list them but I don't know what they are.

(October 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 18, 2013 at 11:47 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I was born an atheist.

You weren't born an atheist you just had other other things to get on with at the time like learning to walk, talk and shit properly and you had to get this out the way before tackling the deeper issues. Once you were at a more informed state of development you made your choice.

Quote:You've never responded to this statement with anything coherent, rather, equating being born with no belief or concept in any deity to being born unable to be toilet trained (subjective, technically shitting yourself is still being toilet trained, just not to our subjective standard).

Like I said you deal with the basics first then your place in the greater scheme of things and your relationship to God later. Or you decide God God doesn't exist and is some kind of a myth still have an active choice to make.

Quote:So, in effect, you're wrong. Everytime you post, you post from a demonstrably incorrect premise, which means most of what you type based on that premise is...well...probably wrong.

If you want to challenge atheism you really have to go straight in for the assertions and assumptions atheists like to make such as "I was born an atheist" or "lack of belief" or "default position". These may as well be doctrines and dogmas that shore up your faith in the belief that you are right and theists are wrong/deluded.

Okay then deomnstrate that I was not born atheist or that I do not lack belief.

---

(October 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 18, 2013 at 11:47 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I was born an atheist.

You weren't born an atheist you just had other other things to get on with at the time like learning to walk, talk and shit properly and you had to get this out the way before tackling the deeper issues. Once you were at a more informed state of development you made your choice.

Quote:You've never responded to this statement with anything coherent, rather, equating being born with no belief or concept in any deity to being born unable to be toilet trained (subjective, technically shitting yourself is still being toilet trained, just not to our subjective standard).

Like I said you deal with the basics first then your place in the greater scheme of things and your relationship to God later. Or you decide God God doesn't exist and is some kind of a myth still have an active choice to make.

Quote:So, in effect, you're wrong. Everytime you post, you post from a demonstrably incorrect premise, which means most of what you type based on that premise is...well...probably wrong.

If you want to challenge atheism you really have to go straight in for the assertions and assumptions atheists like to make such as "I was born an atheist" or "lack of belief" or "default position". These may as well be doctrines and dogmas that shore up your faith in the belief that you are right and theists are wrong/deluded.

Okay then deomnstrate that I was not born atheist or that I do not lack belief.

(October 18, 2013 at 1:20 pm)DLJ Wrote:

(October 18, 2013 at 12:58 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: ...
No problem, but babies have no concept of belief or non-belief. To not believe something you have to be aware of belief.

I'm pretty sure I have no belief in lots of things I'm not aware of.

I would list them but I don't know what they are.

If you don't know what they are you can't have no belief or some belief in them.

(October 18, 2013 at 1:37 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote:

(October 18, 2013 at 1:20 pm)DLJ Wrote:

I'm pretty sure I have no belief in lots of things I'm not aware of.

I would list them but I don't know what they are.

If you don't know what they are you can't have no belief or some belief in them.

I can and I do.

Once, I used the example of "spunkgargleweewee".
You don't know what it is... would you say you believe it exists?

You don't even know what it is! How can you believe it exists?

Now, if I tell you what it is:


Now, do you believe it exists, or not?

(October 18, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I was born with no concept or belief in any sort of deity.

You weren't born with the atheism as a concept or any other concept either. Later in life you decided to become an atheist.

Quote:I was born a de facto atheist. You are incorrect.

Atheism is a philosophy and you learned it and now you adhere to it. You weren't born with it.

Quote:I am continually making choices, continually evaluating claims on a myriad of gods, continually finding them wanting. Pragmatism, look it up.

There is only one God. There are of course different interpretations of this God. We don't have to worry about polytheism as we can say science disproved or discounted the need for the old pagan gods in the natural world. You're making the error of extending this to God when God didn't explain these natural processes he only created them.

Quote:I do not seek to judge the choices of others...unlike some people in this conversation.

If you can't judge choice you won't be able to make an informed choice yourself. Though yes you have judged the belief in God and came to the conclusion that he doesn't exist. But what you did is dismiss him like you did Zeus I'd say that's a mistake because they aren't the same kind of thing.

Quote:Wrong again.

If you think you can make an informed educated choice the moment you're born it's safe to say you are wrong.

Quote:I lack any sort of concept of a 'god'. I've never heard a coherent definition that I can conceptualise or agree with since day 0 of my life till now.

Perhaps you should do some research? Don't just accept the first philosophy or belief that comes along you have to put some effort into rejecting/not accepting the existence of God.

Quote:You are wrong for the third time in this one post.

But you have demonstrated that you don't know very much about theology or philosophy regarding God or religion so you don't to say that with much authority. I'm sure you have read the God Delusion but that's like the blind leading the blind, you have to look at the other side of the argument as well. You can then make a fully informed choice, if it's still atheism after all that then ok.

Quote:It is laughable that you would equate me stating a fact that I lacked a belief or concept of any sort of deity when I was born to it being a dogma/doctrine. This is nonsensical and I can only assume you've taken leave of your senses.

You weren't capable of making an informed choice when you were born it is different to how you are now. It something to take seriously either way don't just accept whatever you're told.

Quote:I have no religious faith. You don't believe me?

You still have a philosophy regarding religion and the true nature of the world, the meaning of life the universe and everything. You weren't born with this belief you learned it later, or at any rate perhaps you picked it up by a kind of osmosis.

Quote:It doesn't matter one bit, doesn't change the fact that I am correct, and you are not

If you want to convince someone of something you don't just state your own opinion as fact. You give reasons for your statements like I have done here. I carefully explained how you were not born as an atheist. Unless you want to say a cow or a pig is an atheist and that you have the exact same reasoning capacity of them?

Sword, have you ever, at all, even once in your life, backed up a single thing you've ever said with any form of supporting evidence, at all?

(October 18, 2013 at 3:16 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Sword, have you ever, at all, even once in your life, backed up a single thing you've ever said with any form of supporting evidence, at all?

He sure has, "God did it".