(October 19, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Rationalman Wrote: Nope he has it right. God created the whole situation in the first place.

He gave us freewill and so we have the capacity of sin and evil, these things tear us away from God and heaven. Heaven is not just a place you go when you die you can see it a state of being, something you can realize here on Earth right now as Jesus himself taught. You can also have a read of Genesis providing you take the story as a parable for the human condition and our relationship to our creator. Yes it's a myth but a myth with true meaning.

Quote:Who's fault is it if you refuse to pay protection money to the godfather and his thugs break your legs?

You don't have the right idea as a creature of God made in his image God loves you and saves you from sin, death and hell and brings you into eternal life. He can't force you into it of course, but as C.S Lewis said death isn't necessarily the cut-off point for accepting it. Now the God of Islam perhaps would be closer to the godfather analogy, you reject him the way you're doing and he will throw you into a literal hell fire that will burn off all your flesh and then regenerate it all and burn it off again. The Christian God loves everyone and the Islamic God and other versions of God only love certain people. A bit of William Lane Craig for you here.

Quote:With your line of reasoning it would be the persons fault for not paying. Can you not see how ridiculous that is?

It would be if that's how it was meant to work. But you got it all wrong.

There is no choice in the matter. That is the whole point i'm making. Of course you will pay the protection money. But its not your own choice to get your legs broken if you refuse to pay.

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(October 19, 2013 at 4:48 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: The Christian God loves everyone

Oh does he now. Do you know what butterfly children are? Might want to look all those up. How about all those people killed by tornadoes, hurricanes, volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, lightning strikes, forest/bush fires. A loving god would not allow these things to happen.

Now i'm just going to wait for the justifications of all of these. Please do explain how all these people deserve the pain, suffering and death.

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(October 19, 2013 at 4:46 pm)professor Wrote: Are you saying this whole mess is God's fault since He started the ball rolling?

I am saying he created the situation in which going to hell is possible. That means it is his responsibility and the blame lies with him. Again i shall use the godfather example: sure you have a choice, either pay the protection money or not. But if you don't pay, you get your legs broken or you get killed. So obviously you will pay. In reality, there is no actual choice there. But if you should choose to not pay, it is not your fault, and you are not choosing to get your legs broken. The blame lies with the godfather because he created the whole situation. If he wasn't blackmailing you for protection money in the first place, there would be no need for a choice. Its the same thing with god. If he doesn't demand you worship him and stick by his code of ethics and morals, we wouldn't go to hell and we wouldn't have a problem

(October 19, 2013 at 4:17 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 19, 2013 at 2:21 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Did Yahweh create hell?

You should be glad he did, unless you want to spend eternity with child rapists or whatever. Mind you even they would be forgiven if they sincerely repented and were genuinely sorry about what they did.

World's stupidest answer right there. It's lose lose: By your own words if I got to Hell I have to spend eternity with child rapists but if I go to heaven I STILL have to spend an eternity with child rapists.

Which truly means that your god punishes wrong thinkers not wrong doers. A serial rapist murder can spend eternity in heaven as long as he kneels before your dictator god and says hes sorry but a guy like me has to go to hell because I wouldn't kneel to that kind of narcissistic douche nozzle.

(October 19, 2013 at 4:17 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 19, 2013 at 2:21 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Do you not believe that Yahweh sends people to hell?

I'd say they send themselves there by destroying their own soul/connection with the divine and the collective inner good of humanity.

This is used up tired out bull shit filthy apologist rhetoric. You all want so desperately to get around the fact that your nasty god tosses billions of people into hell and even brags about it in that immoral book you read.

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



Fuck you and your phony god -- a self-proclaimed angry, jealous, vengeful piece of shit who's kindness is rarely seen and when it is, its nothing more significant than "helping you find your car keys," or "keeping the weather sunny for your Saturday picnic." David Blain could produce a better "miracle" than your god .... and Blain sucks!

For anyone with a brain in their head, it's painfully obvious that your god is a contrivance of man - a filthy reminder of how vicious, vain and vindictive humans can be.

(October 19, 2013 at 2:58 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

(October 19, 2013 at 2:16 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Who says he does that? Yourself? Atheist claptrap you read?

Nope he has it right. God created the whole situation in the first place. Who's fault is it if you refuse to pay protection money to the godfather and his thugs break your legs?
With your line of reasoning it would be the persons fault for not paying. Can you not see how ridiculous that is?

No he does not the right just because he is superior than us. Any true loving being would do what he can to protect his children from everlasting torment. There is no point of eternal punishment because the point of punishment is you are pose to learn to it, especially for something as menial as "belief".

Does it not take a genius to figure out that all religion was made up by ignorant stone age men just like any other to terrorize people.

http://www.evilbible.com

Just to clarify, i was agreeing with you, dolphins

(October 19, 2013 at 5:06 pm)Rationalman Wrote: There is no choice in the matter. That is the whole point i'm making. Of course you will pay the protection money. But its not your own choice to get your legs broken if you refuse to pay.

That's not how it works, you basically have three options here.

1) There is no eternal salvation, this is not good news.

2) There is eternal salvation but you have to earn it entirely yourself this is not good news.

3) There is eternal salvation and it given you as a free gift from God himself, this is good news.

All other religions are option 2 but Christianity is the only option 3 on the market. Though God isn't going to force a gift onto you that you don't want or wouldn't ever accept. If you reject God you will keep all your sin and be removed from Gods love but that's would be what you decide you want. What you don't get is Gods love forced upon you you can reject him.

Quote:Oh does he now. Do you know what butterfly children are? Might want to look all those up. How about all those people killed by tornadoes, hurricanes, volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, lightning strikes, forest/bush fires. A loving god would not allow these things to happen.

How would you create a physical universe that allows for the evolution of sentient organic forms of life and avoid these consequences of the natural physical laws you need to have established to begin with? You can ask why God decided to create us this way but I'd say it's so we can come to have a relationship with him through our own freedom of choice, you would call this relationship between creature and creator is called a theosis.

Quote:Now i'm just going to wait for the justifications of all of these.

I gave you some, heck do you think this aspect of life and human suffering wasn't mentioned in the Bible at all? You'll find it's in there in full gritty detail. God himself shared in this human suffering on the cross of course he understands human pain and misery.

Quote:Please do explain how all these people deserve the pain, suffering and death.

It's a consequence of human freedom of will and the way the natural order has to be to allow for the freedom of will in the first place. It wasn't possible to create ourselves without suffering involved. But it was still worth creating because positives ultimately outweigh the negatives, the creation is still good, we are good and life is still a gift and we still have a loving relationship with our creator.

Quote:Are you saying this whole mess is God's fault since He started the ball rolling?

Do you place any value in human life and human freedom at all? If you do then here you are and God made you. Yes your physical body is the result of billions of years of natural processes but God made of all of that to begin with.

Quote:I am saying he created the situation in which going to hell is possible.

Only if you want to abuse what God has given you and/or reject Gods grace. I'm not saying you're necessarily doing that yourself. It's more a misunderstanding than a genuine rejection of God in your case.

Quote:That means it is his responsibility and the blame lies with him. Again i shall use the godfather example: sure you have a choice, either pay the protection money or not. But if you don't pay, you get your legs broken or you get killed. So obviously you will pay. In reality, there is no actual choice there. But if you should choose to not pay, it is not your fault, and you are not choosing to get your legs broken. The blame lies with the godfather because he created the whole situation. If he wasn't blackmailing you for protection money in the first place, there would be no need for a choice. Its the same thing with god. If he doesn't demand you worship him and stick by his code of ethics and morals, we wouldn't go to hell and we wouldn't have a problem

Think of hell like this, take all your character flaws your anxieties your hostility/aggression everything about yourself you don't like and magnify it over an eternity of time. Bearing in mind you can't "cease to exist" as a creation in the image of God you are immortal. I think there is a problem with the whole concept of being able to "cease to exist" when you already exist, seeing as it's only existence you experience nothing else.


C.S Lewis does a good job explaining hell in a Biblically consistent manner, describing it as a prison with all the doors locked from the inside.

http://www.discovery.org/a/507

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: That's not how it works, you basically have three options here.

1) There is no eternal salvation, this is not good news.

Why is that not good news? I don't think I wan't to live forever, i may get bored after the first 5000 years. When I die, my consciousness will cease to exist. Just like it didn't exist for the billions of years before my birth, and that wasn't so bad.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: All other religions are option 2 but Christianity is the only option 3 on the market. Though God isn't going to force a gift onto you that you don't want or wouldn't ever accept. If you reject God you will keep all your sin and be removed from Gods love but that's would be what you decide you want. What you don't get is Gods love forced upon you you can reject him.

No it is not your decision at all, you are not choosing hell and eternal damnation. 'Do what I say or i'll kill you' there is no choice there.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: How would you create a physical universe that allows for the evolution of sentient organic forms of life and avoid these consequences of the natural physical laws you need to have established to begin with?

He is all powerful isn't he? If he wanted he could get rid of all these problems. Butterfly children wouldn't need to exist if he made our genetic coding perfect. That doesn't seem to hard to do for an all powerful universe creator. BTW do you know why they are called butterfly children? Because they don't survive to adulthood. But its not their illness that kills them. They kill themselves because they can't bear the pain anymore. Please explain how a god that loves EVERYONE and (has the power to stop this), lets this happen

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: You can ask why God decided to create us this way but I'd say it's so we can come to have a relationship with him through our own freedom of choice, you would call this relationship between creature and creator is called a theosis.

That does not address what I just said. Unless you mean you develop a relationship with god through lifelong suffering and death. If that is the case, how many times have you separated the dermis from the epidermis of your skin? How many days have you spent in agonizing pain for no apparent reason. How many people do you know that have been killed in natural disasters? A god that loves everyone....what a joke.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: God himself shared in this human suffering on the cross of course he understands human pain and misery.

Well i'm sure that makes everyone who is suffering in the world feel better. God understands human pain and misery, well fantastic! I'm sure all those starving aids ridden kids in africa are reassured by that. This makes him even worse. He understands the suffering that people go through yet does nothing about it. This god certainly does not love everyone.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: It's a consequence of human freedom of will and the way the natural order has to be to allow for the freedom of will in the first place.

So the butterfly children (who were born with their condition) deserve the excruciating pain that they deal with everyday because....humans have free will. Disgusting

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: It wasn't possible to create ourselves without suffering involved. But it was still worth creating because positives ultimately outweigh the negatives, the creation is still good, we are good and life is still a gift and we still have a loving relationship with our creator.

Oh...so as long as there are slightly less people suffering than not suffering, that makes it ok. Pathetic.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: Do you place any value in human life and human freedom at all?

Free will and freedom is an illusion. As Loki said (or something along the lines of) : Freedom is life's greatest lie. No one is free. Only the last human being in existence would truly be free.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: Only if you want to abuse what God has given you and/or reject Gods grace.

Only if you want to abuse what the Godfather has given you and/or reject the Godfathers grace. See what I did there?

(October 20, 2013 at 8:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: I'm not saying you're necessarily doing that yourself. It's more a misunderstanding than a genuine rejection of God in your case.

I do not misunderstand him. I fully reject the idea of the Christian god

The Christian god is a whiny, narcissistic, murderous, lazy deity at worst. At best he wants to love you, but if you don't love him or were unlucky enough to grow up without his word you're getting a one way ticket to torture town.

Fuck that guy.

Thankfully he's about as real as the Tooth Fairy so it doesn't matter.

(October 20, 2013 at 10:09 am)Rationalman Wrote: Why is that not good news? I don't think I wan't to live forever

How would you remove your own conscious perspective within time from existence as you currently experience it? Death won't work if you already exist consciously within space and time prior to that point in time. It's easier to assume you will continue forward in your own experience of time in some form beyond your current physical body. So rationally you don't really have the option of ceasing to be, you do have the option of a change in form however. To a certain extent you can figure this out it's not purely a faith thing.

Quote:, i may get bored after the first 5000 years. When I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.

We can establish you can't cease to exist if you already exist, you're a permanent fixture in the totality of existence. Yes may get bored of the physical pleasures of the flesh after 5000 years but the spiritual pleasures of God are limitless. You can of course experience some of that right now you don't have to wait until you die.

Quote: Just like it didn't exist for the billions of years before my birth, and that wasn't so bad.

That was before God created you and brought you into existence from nothing because you are a created being. This may have been sometime before you born/conceived but it's a little beyond what I know.

Quote:No it is not your decision at all, you are not choosing hell and eternal damnation. 'Do what I say or i'll kill you' there is no choice there.

You can have eternal life with God and in love or eternal life without God and without his love, that's essentially the choice you have. It's a fair enough choice as you're not being forced into anything you don't want.

Quote:He is all powerful isn't he? If he wanted he could get rid of all these problems. Butterfly children wouldn't need to exist if he made our genetic coding perfect. That doesn't seem to hard to do for an all powerful universe creator. BTW do you know why they are called butterfly children? Because they don't survive to adulthood. But its not their illness that kills them. They kill themselves because they can't bear the pain anymore. Please explain how a god that loves EVERYONE and (has the power to stop this), lets this happen

If he created us the way you're suggesting we wouldn't be humans but angels, they don't necessarily get to have their own freedom of will they carry out Gods will. But as humans we have the free choice and are able to exist in an interactive two way relationship with God.

Quote:That does not address what I just said. Unless you mean you develop a relationship with god through lifelong suffering and death. If that is the case, how many times have you separated the dermis from the epidermis of your skin? How many days have you spent in agonizing pain for no apparent reason. How many people do you know that have been killed in natural disasters? A god that loves everyone....what a joke.

The Bible and the gospels do heavily stress the suffering and pain of human life. It is part of the deal and part of our relationship with God. See for instance the Book of Job or Christs scourging and crucifixion, see the story of Genesis and humanities fall through sin. It's not exactly a book of cuddly bunnies and unicorns you know. But the suffering of this world isn't forever it's one small part of eternity. Seen through thios lens you can better endure what life has to throw at you with God as your refuge.

Quote:Well i'm sure that makes everyone who is suffering in the world feel better.

It most certainly does.

"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have. Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind." Philippians 2:2

Quote:God understands human pain and misery, well fantastic! I'm sure all those starving aids ridden kids in africa are reassured by that.

More reassurance than you would give them.

Quote:This makes him even worse. He understands the suffering that people go through yet does nothing about it. This god certainly does not love everyone.

He has done something about it. Through Christs death on the cross and the coming eternal kingdom of heaven and through the grace he gives us that frees us from all sin. We haven't just been abandoned and cast off by God nor are we meaningless byproducts of a universe fated to die in decay ruin. We're part of one great eternal dance at the center of which is a man with holes through his hands that have pierced through with nails.

Quote:So the butterfly children (who were born with their condition) deserve the excruciating pain that they deal with everyday because....humans have free will. Disgusting

Because of the way we were made we evolved naturally, there are going to be genetic defects and mutations. People are going to suffer and die as we all will eventually that's what being a human is all about it can't be avoided. That's the bad new, but there is then there is the good news rejoice for he has risen!

Quote:Oh...so as long as there are slightly less people suffering than not suffering, that makes it ok. Pathetic.

No it doesn't make it ok. Atheists seem to think it is ok.



What about people who aren't enjoying their life? And I like the idea that the possible existence of God is something is worry about like it would be a disaster if he does.

Quote:Free will and freedom is an illusion. As Loki said (or something along the lines of) : Freedom is life's greatest lie. No one is free. Only the last human being in existence would truly be

"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

But if God doesn't exist then you're right we wouldn't be.

Quote:Only if you want to abuse what the Godfather has given you and/or reject the Godfathers grace. See what I did there?

God(our heavenly)father more like.

Quote:I do not misunderstand him. I fully reject the idea of the Christian god

You don't reject the Christian God because you don't understand what the Christian God is or why people would place their faith in him.

(October 19, 2013 at 4:17 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: I'd say they send themselves there by destroying their own soul/connection with the divine and the collective inner good of humanity. I think you have to do a bit more than be ignorant or misguided concerning the existence or nature of God though.

Your society, culture, friends, family, the media, Youtube videos, New Atheist books, people/scientists you respect as the authority have told you God is a myth or whatever so I probably won't be able to convince of anything. You may get a chance to accept Gods grace after you die perhaps. It's still a shame you won't have a knowing relationship with God in this life though.