(October 23, 2013 at 12:59 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Then why is a conscious entity needed at all?

Believers of all religions never like to consider this.

I find it difficult to believe how many religious people seriously ask this question. It would be like me asking a Christian, "If God changed His mind, (again), and said it was OK to steal and kill, would you be out robbing banks and killing people tomorrow?" Sheese... it is unbelievable how naive some people are.

Look, you live your life. When it's over, the world will either be a better, or worse place. Personally, I would like to leave the world better, because if I make it worse, I feel it would make my existence, my life, worse than meaningless. I don't have to answer to anyone but myself, to try to live a decent, moral, ethical life.

I suppose the reason so many are confused about this has to do with our culture. We have collectively chosen to value, (religious and non-religious alike), competition, profit, and greed over cooperation, honor, and love, and it's turning our world into a cesspool.

Humans have evolved to be social, to be empathetic, to cooperate. We have to care about, and care for each other since we are all but helpless for the first several years of our lives. Some, "primitive" cultures figured this out and lived accordingly. A good example are the Native Americans who, when we first arrived, believed greed, (taking more than you need), was a form of mental illness!

Sorry... getting back on topic, yes, there is a point to living a moral life. The point is the survival of our damn species!

To deviate from the current discussion for a second and address the thread and specifically the title: Whether or not there is a 'point' to living a moral life is a value judgement.

(October 23, 2013 at 1:43 pm)Phea1Mike Wrote: I find it difficult to believe how many religious people seriously ask this question. It would be like me asking a Christian, "If God changed His mind, (again), and said it was OK to steal and kill, would you be out robbing banks and killing people tomorrow?" Sheese... it is unbelievable how naive some people are.

Look, you live your life. When it's over, the world will either be a better, or worse place. Personally, I would like to leave the world better, because if I make it worse, I feel it would make my existence, my life, worse than meaningless. I don't have to answer to anyone but myself, to try to live a decent, moral, ethical life.

I suppose the reason so many are confused about this has to do with our culture. We have collectively chosen to value, (religious and non-religious alike), competition, profit, and greed over cooperation, honor, and love, and it's turning our world into a cesspool.

Humans have evolved to be social, to be empathetic, to cooperate. We have to care about, and care for each other since we are all but helpless for the first several years of our lives. Some, "primitive" cultures figured this out and lived accordingly. A good example are the Native Americans who, when we first arrived, believed greed, (taking more than you need), was a form of mental illness!

Sorry... getting back on topic, yes, there is a point to living a moral life. The point is the survival of our damn species!

This is a kick-ass response and spot-on! Excellent post Phea1Mike. Welcome to the forums. First day rep point.

(October 23, 2013 at 1:43 pm)Phea1Mike Wrote: "If God changed His mind, (again), and said it was OK to steal and kill, would you be out robbing banks and killing people tomorrow?" Sheese... it is unbelievable how naive some people are.

It would be the same as God changing his mind and deciding that down is up and black is white. But he never has changed his mind in the eternity of his existence, which also means he never will into the future.

(October 23, 2013 at 2:56 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 23, 2013 at 1:43 pm)Phea1Mike Wrote: "If God changed His mind, (again), and said it was OK to steal and kill, would you be out robbing banks and killing people tomorrow?" Sheese... it is unbelievable how naive some people are.

It would be the same as God changing his mind and deciding that down is up and black is white. But he never has changed his mind in the eternity of his existence, which also means he never will into the future.

Wrongo! The god of the bible had MPD at least, and is a narcissist at best. It changes its mind as frequently as new denominations appear.

(October 22, 2013 at 8:42 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: How can atoms be *about* something? More to the point; how can brain states - a thing reducible to physical processes - be *about* something?

Consciousness is a prerequisite for meaning to "appear" out of physical things. Isn't it our conscience that assings meaning to those atoms? To a brain scan indicating the person is feeling joy?

Yet if consciousness is reduced to a physical process, naturalism survives in tact. We can't know that for a fact at this point with our scientific knowledge, but that's far from a reason to abandon naturalism and posit some unseen force as a solution.

In Exodus chapter 32, god is so angry at the disloyalty of the Israelites that he warns Moses that he is going to destroy them and rebuild the nation anew. Moses points out that it would look bad for god to have led the Israelites out of Egypt only to massacre them himself in the desert, and god relents.

Why wouldn't god be able to change his mind?

(October 22, 2013 at 9:55 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(October 22, 2013 at 9:46 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: Perhaps you shouldn't have been a quickshot McGee, as I had edited my post just prior to your new one. Further, explain how on your view as a substance dualist how meaning arises from a secondary substance and/or its interaction with its companion substance. It's not like yours is a privileged position that has already solved all these problems and thus is golden.

No. You first. It's a common forum trick by atheists to turn the question back at the Christian rather than do the heavy lifting of defending your own position.

Translation: I can't defend my position, only ask you to defend yours.

"It would be the same as God changing his mind and deciding that down is up and black is white. But he never has changed his mind in the eternity of his existence, which also means he never will into the future."


I'd better make this clear right up front. Since I do not believe the bible is anything more than Hebrew mythology, I tend to not get into pissing contests over it's contents.

That being said, if you haven't read it, or don't have the reading comprehension skills to see the many contradictions, errors, and immoral dogma throughout it, all I can do is give you some links to help you sort is all out. This one should get you started:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

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[quote='ronedee' pid='526080' dateline='1381969406']
...for an Atheist that is?


"Yeah, yeah....I know you would say that Christians are doing the same thing....And they are! But, they do have a conviction in the Lord Jesus. and they know that they will answer to their words and deeds."

I was under the impression that the whole point of Christianity was that if you believed, you are unconditionally forgiven. There is no one to, "answer to". After salvation, there is no punishment, no consequences for any of our actions, or... what would be the point?

I've been told that a mass murderer/rapist/(insert sin), who genuinely accepts Jesus in his heart, will be saved and go to heaven, while a man who has tried to live a good, decent life, and just doesn't buy into the human sacrifice-zombie-Jesus thing, will be damned. There is nothing remotely fair or just about this horrible belief. The concept of allowing someone else to atone for our actions, is an ancient concept,(like slavery), that some of us have outgrown.

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"Yeah, yeah....I know you would say that Christians are doing the same thing....And they are! But, they do have a conviction in the Lord Jesus. and they know that they will answer to their words and deeds."

I was under the impression that the whole point of Christianity was that if you believed, you are unconditionally forgiven. There is no one to, "answer to". After salvation, there is no punishment, no consequences for any of our actions, or... what would be the point?

I've been told that a mass murderer/rapist/(insert sin), who genuinely accepts Jesus in his heart, will be saved and go to heaven, while a man who has tried to live a good, decent life, and just doesn't buy into the human sacrifice-zombie-Jesus thing, will be damned. There is nothing remotely fair or just about this horrible belief. The concept of allowing someone else to atone for our actions, is an ancient concept,(like slavery), that some of us have outgrown.