(October 28, 2013 at 11:22 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote:

(October 28, 2013 at 1:26 am)Godschild Wrote: God can no more be proven by math and computers than, I can prove God by saying He exist.

You thereby give up any sense of justification for your belief in God. Congrats.

The only justification I'm responsible for is to myself and that comes first through faith, then progresses through to belief and then knowledge. So you see I've given up nothing and actually gained knowledge of God's existence.

GC Wrote:To come to God is by faith and belief comes God working through that faith and knowledge of God comes from god's work through belief. God says on this subject that no man can deny He exists because of His creation, yet He says nothing about accepting He did and is real. This statement will made clear at the judgement.

GC

MFM Wrote:I deny he exists. I see 'creation' and do not conclude he exists. Further, this is a fundamental contradiction with what you just said. If by the fact of creation I cannot deny God exists, that means such is in some sense a proof. And you've contradicted yourself again. To say God's existence is undeniable because of his creation, and then to say God says nothing about accepting that he's real is contradictory.

I should have made this clearer, not being able to deny God comes at the judgement, obviously, during one's time here one can deny God's existence. God will show those who deny Him here where the made their error, everything and I mean everything will be revealed at the judgement.

MFM Wrote:And if the truth of your religion is predicated on it being true that everyone believes he exists but simply pretends otherwise, it becomes even more impossible for me to accept your religion because under that I ALREADY know it to be false because I already know that I don't believe your God exists.

God says everyone will bend his/her knees and bow their before Him, and say, yes you truly are the King, this also occurs at the judgement. Rejecting God now is your only and free decision you can make in your present life or accepting Him into your life. Again sorry for making this confusing before.

GC

(October 28, 2013 at 7:06 am)max-greece Wrote: Fails due to the Christian God being far from my idea of the perfect being. He is not the most perfect being imaginable by a long way. He doesn't even make the top 1000.

I can find more perfect beings in the pages of Playboy. Who cares if they're airbrushed?

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(October 28, 2013 at 1:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: So you see I've given up nothing and actually gained knowledge of God's existence.

Then what does God look like? If you claim to know he exists, you've surely seen him, right?

Quote: God will show those who deny Him here where the made their error, everything and I mean everything will be revealed at the judgement.

Oh you mean the part where I found it impossible to believe in God based upon no evidence and then God reveals why he hid any & all evidence of his existence as well as refusing to show me a sign that he exists?

Quote:God says everyone will bend his/her knees and bow their before Him, and say, yes you truly are the King, this also occurs at the judgement.

If this scenario were to happen, I wouldn't kneel before him or call him a king. If he's going to send me to hell for not believing in him after he hid his existence, then why should I kneel? Especially since he's going to throw me in hell anyway? Why can't I just flip him the bird? It would be like those movies where the bad guy is talking to the hero who's tied up, and all the hero can do is spit in the bad guy's face even though he knows the bad guy is likely going to kill him. What more can the bad guy do? God can't torture me for even longer than eternity.

(October 28, 2013 at 1:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: The only justification I'm responsible for is to myself and that comes first through faith, then progresses through to belief and then knowledge. So you see I've given up nothing and actually gained knowledge of God's existence.

Oh, but that's not true: what you've given up is your credibility and ability to convince anyone who isn't willing to believe what you think they should; you've essentially admitted that the only reason you believe is because you want to. Why should your beliefs matter to anyone else, at all, at that point?

(October 27, 2013 at 11:30 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: Treating existence as a precicate, a property. Philosophers widely consider this a problem, since there doesn't seem to be any actual difference between imagining something, and imagining that something as existing.

Could you point me in the direction of noted article about this idea that existence is not a property. Perhaps you understand existence in terms of events?

(October 28, 2013 at 1:26 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(October 28, 2013 at 1:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: So you see I've given up nothing and actually gained knowledge of God's existence.

Then what does God look like? If you claim to know he exists, you've surely seen him, right?

Yes, I see Him all the time.

GC Wrote:God will show those who deny Him here where they made their error, everything and I mean everything will be revealed at the judgement.

DT Wrote:Oh you mean the part where I found it impossible to believe in God based upon no evidence and then God reveals why he hid any & all evidence of his existence as well as refusing to show me a sign that he exists?

God will reveal to you all the evidence you ignored. Christ told Thomas that He believes because of sight. He told Thomas blessed are those who will believe without seeing.

GC Wrote:God says everyone will bend his/her knees and bow their before Him, and say, yes you truly are the King, this also occurs at the judgement.

DT Wrote:If this scenario were to happen, I wouldn't kneel before him or call him a king. If he's going to send me to hell for not believing in him after he hid his existence, then why should I kneel? Especially since he's going to throw me in hell anyway? Why can't I just flip him the bird? It would be like those movies where the bad guy is talking to the hero who's tied up, and all the hero can do is spit in the bad guy's face even though he knows the bad guy is likely going to kill him. What more can the bad guy do? God can't torture me for even longer than eternity.

What you think and what will really take place are two very different things. There's only one reason God would send you to hell, because you chose to be separated from Him. The bad guy and the hero, and you accuse me of living in a fantasy world. God does not torture, though He could make your punishment worse.

GC

(October 28, 2013 at 9:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: What you think and what will really take place are two very different things.

True. What you think will happen is not going to happen at all.

(October 28, 2013 at 10:26 pm)Maelstrom Wrote:

(October 28, 2013 at 9:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: What you think and what will really take place are two very different things.

True. What you think will happen is not going to happen at all.

@GodsChild,

I agree with Maelstrom here. It is you who will find no savior at the end of your life; no reward; no punishment; nothing but a flagging neural impulse telling you that you're fantasy was true. And indeed, "What you think and what will really take place are two very different things."

(October 28, 2013 at 10:35 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote:

(October 28, 2013 at 10:26 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: True. What you think will happen is not going to happen at all.

@GodsChild,

I agree with Maelstrom here. It is you who will find no savior at the end of your life; no reward; no punishment; nothing but a flagging neural impulse telling you that you're fantasy was true. And indeed, "What you think and what will really take place are two very different things."

Lucky for me both of you are expressing opinion and not fact, right?

GC

(October 28, 2013 at 10:48 pm)Godschild Wrote: Lucky for me both of you are expressing opinion and not fact, right?

GC

From your erroneous perspective that is in no way grounded in reality.

(October 28, 2013 at 10:48 pm)Godschild Wrote: Lucky for me both of you are expressing opinion and not fact, right?

GC

I have not one, but thousands of books to back my claims. It's called science, and you may as well surrender to it, seeing as you are already only a part of it, and nothing else.

P.S.

The bible is also opinion (the opinions of hundreds of conflicting authors who all seek personal glory in their god's name (just like the church today)).