(November 13, 2013 at 12:39 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:In simple terms you are confusing brain complexity with a god.

And the human brain evolved over millions of years with no help from any fucking god.

And in the case of christians god couldn't help the fact that their brains didn't evolve over millions of years.

(November 13, 2013 at 9:35 am)Texas Sailor Wrote: No, God hasn’t revealed anything to me, there is no God that I know anything about. I know nothing of God and very little of you, so I would not pretend to be able to speak for either. There is no single version of man’s God, but every version I’ve heard comes from a man. If your God does not have a hell, or in some way is incompatible to the way I’ve depicted it, then by all means, offer clarification of your position if you think it may reconcile the things I find incompatible with an allegedly loving God. Your God does not have a hell, or a devil involved in his doctrine I take it?

I think I like your "attitude" concerning your son. I basically feel the same about my children, my youngest just turned 10, my oldest is recently out of college.

But, I think you're selling "gift" too short. Of course you have your opinion, which I respect. But, life to me is "the gift". And we either use it as something precious and valued beyond ourselves. Or, we believe we are a random happening, and live for nothing other than making our lawns green, and weed free.

And what of our children? What is your hope for them? Or, is "hope" not something that means anything as "faith" doesn't?

Do you care that your child may find God? And in a way that you don't understand? Will that affect your love for him? If my children move away from God, (and a few are indeed) I'm saddened, but love them none-the-less! I have Hope.

And [if] God did reveal Himself to you, would it matter at this point in your life? What manner of revelation would be meaningful, and life changing?

I'm sorry to be presumptuous, but I say there is none that would change you! You see, the evidence is within, as Jesus' words rely. If it aint there I'm sorry to say it won't become that way.

But again, as Jesus says; "What is impossible for man, is possible for God."

So, yes there is Hope. At least for those who have it.

---

(November 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm)Rationalman Wrote: You're kidding right? What is the difference between seeing something and evidence? Where to start....
I can see my computer screen in front of me. That is enough evidence to convince me that it exists. However, our brains are notorious for mucking things up. Hallucinations, delirium, imaginary friends. Sometimes we see things that aren't there: aliens, ghosts, bigfoot etc.
And aside from that, we have some things that clearly exist but are not visible to the human eye. The most obvious being gravity, air, the wind. We know these things exist due to evidence. We would not believe they exist if all we did was look for them.
Seeing, definitely is not believing. How many people in the past have looked up at the northern lights and thought gods or magic?

Who's kidding who?

So according to you, "hearing" something is akin to "knowing" something? And you have a slide rule in your back pocket too.

No. Seeing & Hearing/Reading evidence is not the same... Unless of course you have Faith!

(November 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm)Rationalman Wrote: My answer, and all of this was irrelevant due to the fact that you exist and your daughter exists and she knows that you exist. You do not know god exists in the same way your daughter knows that you exist therefore calling this scenario with your daughter: an example of faith is wrong.

So, you are saying that because you have a close relationship with someone, you can be [gauranteed] that they will do something for you?

No that is HOPE!

My daugther doesn't have hope that I will do anything. She has [faith] that I will do everything!

"Faith" is "hope" becoming reality. I have "faith" that God will take care of my entire life. I have "hope" He will take care of [your] life... and my childrens!

(November 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm)Rationalman Wrote: Of course we don't acknowledge it, no atheist does. It is not a tool to knowledge or wisdom or enlightenment. Its merely the excuse people give for believing in something without evidence. Its what christians say to you once you have them cornered and they can not justify their belief in god. All their answer comes down to is: well you just gotta have faith.
You parade faith around like some kind of virtue when it clearly is not. It is a no more desirable characteristic in a person than uncontrollable rage and aggression. Believing in something without any evidence is not holy or mystical or spiritual or special. It is stupidity and gullibility and it demonstrates just how irrational the human race can be.

So, we can quantize our stance, by those with "faith", and those w/o faith".

But, you are also selling "faith" short! You have faith and don't know it! Do you want me to list all the things you have faith about?

Or will you just call "faith", "knowing"? Which makes little difference.

Or "Believing"? Semantics again? Do you believe gravity will hold you down today? Or do you know, have faith it will? Which is it?

You can play with words as much as you want...but don't say they mean something they don't. Its the words following "I believe" that are the important ones.

(November 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm)Rationalman Wrote: So according to your logic here. You would be absolutely willing to start a new job without any other evidence than an email from someone. You wouldn't care that you have never met them before, you wouldn't care if you searched their company on the internet and found nothing. They don't need to prove they or their company exists?

Is that company God?

(November 12, 2013 at 10:48 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Christianity, and a few other religions actually, definitely does give people the idea that they're superior to the rest. God bless America, right? For some reason, god is always on the side of the christians, how can that not make you feel superior? Slave owners used the bible to justify what they were doing, abolitionists used it to justify what they were doing, kkk also used god to justify their shit, so did those that burned witches. To think that it doesn't make anyone feel superior is absurd. If you don't feel superior, why bother sending missionaries out to convert others? Because you believe that you know what's best for them! And the amount of effort put into evangelizing proves my point that this is a rather widespread phenomenon.

I agree, people in the Bible did awful things, people have used the Bible as justification to do even worse things. However, the Bible is about people. I think we need to take into account that people are not perfect, they make mistakes. Also, I would like to argue that deconstructionism is not a good thing, especially when applied to the Bible. The author of any book has a meaning in mind when they write it, and if you simply interpret what they wrote in your own way, it won't make sense and you may end up using it incorrectly.
If I wasn't clear, please say so.
Thanks!
mattpaul42

(November 13, 2013 at 3:44 am)max-greece Wrote: I have to go with no for this for the following reasons:

If I am asked: "What is 6 and 9?" I answer immediately 15 without thinking about it. This is because I have learned that sum and am merely recalling the answer. My answer is instinctive - often I will then re-do the sum in my head just to check as it does feel the answer sprang out of nowhere.

On the other hand if I am asked what is 2346 + 9456 I will have to work it out as that is not a sum I have remembered (or even possibly ever done).

These answers may come from somewhere else - but if they do that somewhere else is a different part of the Brain - not an external source.

I re-read my original argument to thry and see what was wrong with it. Apparently I'm not as good at explaining my argument as I thought.
That said, our ability to do math cannot just come from our brains. If it did, we would still be able to add, but we would be clueless as to why addition worked the way it did. Surely even with a simple math problem like 6+9, which you have known for many years, it never came as a surprise to you that 15 was the answer. You didn't just know that when you put 6 and 9 together, you get 15 somehow. You understand what it means to have 6 of something, to have 9 more of them and to put the 6 and 9 together. It's the understanding part that has to come from somewhere else other than our brains.
5) The Old Testament condones slavery.

Esquilax Wrote:I don't take "slaves, obey your masters," to be a moral commandment. But it's there, along with a parable from Jesus himself that endorses the beating of slaves. Combine those with the never-repealed old testament rules for the owning of slaves from the tribes around you, and we've got one hell of an immoral system, right there.

OK, so I'm sure you've all heard what I'm about to say before, but let me say it anyway so you all can respond to it.
Old Testament slavery (and even NT slavery, for that matter) was nothing like Western or modern slavery. It was a way for foreigners who had gone to war with them in the past to continue to live in their land. And the Bible defines slavery in no uncertain terms in Leviticus 25:

Quote:39 If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 40 he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 41 Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. 42 For they are my servants,[e] whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 43 You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God.

Although these rules are specifically for Hebrew slaves, it is important to remember that even foreign slaves would have to have entered into it themselves, because of this law in Exodus:

Quote:16 Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

6) There are too many denominations of Christianity for it to be taken seriously.
You're right in saying that there are many things even Christians disagree on, but there are also many things we agree on, and the truth of the Bible is one of them, for the most part. That's what I'm arguing for, nothing more, nothing less.
I'm still not sure why this makes Christianity in general less credible though, please elaborate?

(November 13, 2013 at 7:13 pm)mattpaul42 Wrote:

(November 12, 2013 at 10:48 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Christianity, and a few other religions actually, definitely does give people the idea that they're superior to the rest. God bless America, right? For some reason, god is always on the side of the christians, how can that not make you feel superior? Slave owners used the bible to justify what they were doing, abolitionists used it to justify what they were doing, kkk also used god to justify their shit, so did those that burned witches. To think that it doesn't make anyone feel superior is absurd. If you don't feel superior, why bother sending missionaries out to convert others? Because you believe that you know what's best for them! And the amount of effort put into evangelizing proves my point that this is a rather widespread phenomenon.

I agree, people in the Bible did awful things, people have used the Bible as justification to do even worse things. However, the Bible is about people. I think we need to take into account that people are not perfect, they make mistakes. Also, I would like to argue that deconstructionism is not a good thing, especially when applied to the Bible. The author of any book has a meaning in mind when they write it, and if you simply interpret what they wrote in your own way, it won't make sense and you may end up using it incorrectly.
If I wasn't clear, please say so.
Thanks!
mattpaul42

Yes they did, so did god, and some people did horrible things on gods orders

---

As for your argument on math, we know it works because we created it as a abstraction of the natural world, long before we created your favorite god.

(November 13, 2013 at 7:32 pm)Avodaiah Wrote: OK, so I'm sure you've all heard what I'm about to say before, but let me say it anyway so you all can respond to it.
Old Testament slavery (and even NT slavery, for that matter) was nothing like Western or modern slavery. It was a way for foreigners who had gone to war with them in the past to continue to live in their land. And the Bible defines slavery in no uncertain terms in Leviticus 25:

I'm really tired of this old apologetic, because you know that? The bible does define slavery in Leviticus 25, it's just for some odd reason you've chosen to ignore the inconvenient parts and go right to the rules for Hebrew slaves. By the way, I find that kind of slavery immoral too- it's immoral to own another person, period- but there are also rules for the owning of foreigners, so why not take a look at those too:

Leviticus Wrote:However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

So, let's leave aside that this is racist slavery, your apologetic above also breaks down: this isn't some mechanism for having the foreigners live on their own land, because a: they could be foreigners bought from other slave owners, not just conquered ones, b: they would have to move with their owners, and c: they get passed down as inheritance too, as do their families. And let's be clear, this isn't some happy, nice slavery either, because you can beat your slaves unto death, according to Exodus:

Exodus Wrote:When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Do you know how bad a beating has to be for a person to die a day or two after it's been given? Yeah.

Quote:Although these rules are specifically for Hebrew slaves, it is important to remember that even foreign slaves would have to have entered into it themselves, because of this law in Exodus:

Quote:16 Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

So... what? It's okay to own slaves, just so long as you didn't kidnap them first? What kind of moral lesson is that?

It drives me crazy when christians focus on what happens to Hebrew slaves, as though that somehow diminishes what happens to foreign slaves. It's all there, in the book: reading only certain passages and ignoring the inconvenient ones is inexcusably dishonest, and I really did think better of you, newbie. I hope this was just an oversight.

(November 13, 2013 at 7:32 pm)Avodaiah Wrote: It's the understanding part that has to come from somewhere else other than our brains.

Why?

Esquilax Wrote:it's just for some odd reason you've chosen to ignore the inconvenient parts and go right to the rules for Hebrew slaves.

hock: That's not at all what I meant! Let me explain...
I was commenting on slavery in general. not specifically Hebrew or foreign slaves. Leviticus says that Hebrew slaves should be released on the year of jubilee and that they should also be treated well, unlike they were in Egypt. Then it says that foreign slaves are for life, but it makes no comment on the 2nd part of the law, saying that slaves should not be treated with oppression. It seems like that law still applies to foreign slaves as well as Hebrew ones.
I may be wrong on that point, but either way, my main argument was from Exodus, where it says that anyone who kidnaps someone and sells them as a slave, as well as anyone who owns someone who has been kidnapped, shall be put to death. that means that a foreigner could willingly become a slave (perhaps because they already lived there, e.g. the Canaanites in Joshua 16:10).
But believe me when I say this: I honestly do believe that the Bible is true. I love talking with you guys about this stuff, but in my mind I am risking nothing by doing it and have nothing to lose by being honest about what is said in it. From the beginning of this thread I have not lied or skewed my beliefs; I stand by what I have said so far. So please believe me when I tell you that ignoring part of the passage was not my intention.

(November 12, 2013 at 7:21 pm)Avodaiah Wrote:

pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:you know how to add because someone taught you to do that, probably your parents or your kindergarten school teacher. If you weren't taught, you wouldn't know how to add beyond what can be demonstrably done.

God does not follow from knowing how to add.

From the simple fact that we know how to add, no, God does not follow from that. However, in the 2nd part of my argument I explained how the ability to add cannot come from us. If it did, we would be able to add instantaneously because we would always have this ability. The way it is now, we have to think and process problems with larger numbers, essentially waiting for this ability to come to us so we can know the solution. That means the ability to add doesn't come from us, so who does it come from? Someone who is in charge of our minds and our understanding, and who knows how to add.

How about we have the ability to add and learn and deduce things given enough time? From what you're saying, every single piece of knowledge must come from god.

Well, then why did he tell us of all the gods and tell us they're real and then send someone else here to tell us they're fakes? Wtf?

You do know that computers when given complicated equations take time to get to the answer as well? Does that come from god?

I advise that you read up a bit on neurobiology before basing your entire faith on the fact that humans cannot solve additions instantaneously.

(November 13, 2013 at 11:13 pm)Avodaiah Wrote: hock: That's not at all what I meant! Let me explain...

I'm glad: I've run into so many christians that are willing to shirk off the part about beatings and foreign slaves and dishonestly stick to only talking about Hebrew slaves. Perhaps you can see why that would make my eye twitch.

Quote:I was commenting on slavery in general. not specifically Hebrew or foreign slaves. Leviticus says that Hebrew slaves should be released on the year of jubilee and that they should also be treated well, unlike they were in Egypt. Then it says that foreign slaves are for life, but it makes no comment on the 2nd part of the law, saying that slaves should not be treated with oppression. It seems like that law still applies to foreign slaves as well as Hebrew ones.

So, at most you've got a contradiction here, because the biblical rule on beating your slaves is still in effect, and if that level of violence doesn't constitute oppression, I don't know what does. Modern slavery was oppression, and I can't really see a difference between that and this, especially when you add in all the old testament stories of captured virgin girls as slave brides for their conquerors, and even the flat fact that, under biblical law, any children conceived by a slave also belong to their masters; they didn't have a choice in this at all. To characterize this as voluntary slavery is to ignore all the points at which it isn't voluntary at all; incidentally, the Leviticus ruling is to buy your slaves from the heathens around you; it says nothing about where they might have come from before that.

And that's all leaving aside a more basic fact; can you envision a situation in which slavery could ever be moral? If, today, your government put into law a policy where you could own people of other races, and beat them if you wanted to, and force them to work... would it even matter if it was voluntary or not? Especially since there's no upper limit on the contract; unlike the Hebrews, there's no point that you have to let a foreign slave free, so even if they work off their debt there's no need for you to let them go.

Quote:But believe me when I say this: I honestly do believe that the Bible is true. I love talking with you guys about this stuff, but in my mind I am risking nothing by doing it and have nothing to lose by being honest about what is said in it. From the beginning of this thread I have not lied or skewed my beliefs; I stand by what I have said so far. So please believe me when I tell you that ignoring part of the passage was not my intention.

Understood. Like I said, you seem more honest than some theists here, but that's not gonna save unjustified beliefs from the axe.