(November 18, 2013 at 9:54 pm)Godschild Wrote: The reason you left had nothing to do with an open mind, you left because you did something that's not possible in Christianity, joining is not part of Christianity. God calls you and you must surrender yourself to that call, God invites you in, gives you the trust you need and makes you a part of His church. Anything like that happen.

GC

So you have to wait on god's call now do you? What's up with that whole "fishers of men" thing jesus was so keen on? Did he forget to tell them no cold calls? Did the original John 3:16 used to say "After I call you with my super woo woo magic psychic telephone, then you can be saved?

Basically the idea that someone that used to be a christian, but turned atheist is a big problem for you. That would require the overt admission that we don't hear the voice of jesus, even when we believe. It admits that our conversations and feelings during prayer might later be merely explained by emotions and an over-active imagination. Can't have that can we? No, it is much easier to simply play the "you were never a christian" card, so your secret stays nice and safe.

The bible does offer a test for true christians, but you're not about to go drinking poisons are you GC??

(November 18, 2013 at 10:17 pm)Brakeman Wrote:

(November 18, 2013 at 9:54 pm)Godschild Wrote: The reason you left had nothing to do with an open mind, you left because you did something that's not possible in Christianity, joining is not part of Christianity. God calls you and you must surrender yourself to that call, God invites you in, gives you the trust you need and makes you a part of His church. Anything like that happen.

GC

So you have to wait on god's call now do you? What's up with that whole "fishers of men" thing jesus was so keen on? Did he forget to tell them no cold calls? Did the original John 3:16 used to say "After I call you with my super woo woo magic psychic telephone, then you can be saved?

Until God convicts one of their sin no one will come to God, this is the way Christianity begins. No one is saved unless God calls them.

Quote:Basically the idea that someone that used to be a christian, but turned atheist is a big problem for you.

If they were, it concerns me, I do not want anyone to go to hell but, the greater problem lies with the one who rejects Christ as hell awaits them.

Quote: That would require the overt admission that we don't hear the voice of jesus, even when we believe. It admits that our conversations and feelings during prayer might later be merely explained by emotions and an over-active imagination. Can't have that can we? No, it is much easier to simply play the "you were never a christian" card, so your secret stays nice and safe.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here, if one does not hear God's call it's because they haven't been called or they ignored the calling. You can't believe if God doesn't give you the belief, He makes it possible for one to believe. I do believe that some try and make their salvation and try to live a Christian life without Christ in control, I've seen people who claim salvation yet can't explain how it happened, strange wouldn't you think so. The one that needs to be concerned about not being a Christian, is the one that can't answer basic questions about salvation, like you're doing.

Quote:The bible does offer a test for true christians, but you're not about to go drinking poisons are you GC??

I'm not so foolish as to misconstrue a passage like that, but if you desire to go right ahead. The truth is in John's three shorter books. Like myself one who experiences God has no questions about their salvation. When one and there have been millions upon millions who have, experiences God the way I have leaves one with no doubts.

GC

(November 18, 2013 at 11:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: When one and there have been millions upon millions who have, experiences God the way I have leaves one with no doubts.

GC

I can understand how cognitive dissonance makes it extremely difficult for theist to grasp that what they are experiencing is not real.

However, there comes a point when blatantly ignoring the knowledge that there is absolutely zero evidence to support the existence of a deity just to maintain one's grasp on a delusion becomes downright frustrating for those who reside in reality.

Theists who maintain that faith equals knowledge or truth are the most ignorant people on the face of the earth.

(November 18, 2013 at 11:47 pm)Kitanetos Wrote:

(November 18, 2013 at 11:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: When one and there have been millions upon millions who have, experiences God the way I have leaves one with no doubts.

GC

I can understand how cognitive dissonance makes it extremely difficult for theist to grasp that what they are experiencing is not real.

However, there comes a point when blatantly ignoring the knowledge that there is absolutely zero evidence to support the existence of a deity just to maintain one's grasp on a delusion becomes downright frustrating for those who reside in reality.

Theists who maintain that faith equals knowledge or truth are the most ignorant people on the face of the earth.

I'll say to you like I have others death will answer this question ultimately.

GC

by revelation, it's known that no person dies without knowing what's required to remedy the sin problem.
any perceived ignorance of God's offer comes from defying and distorting the truth that He makes clear to every person and thus is self-imposed. by the eternality of the human spirit, everyone knows their decision has eternal consequences. in hebrews - "no sacrifice for sins is left" for those who knowing discard God's sacred gift.

Hi @GC,
When I first became a Christian I experienced the Spiritual High that everyone gets, I think its cobbled with Emotion / Having New Friends and everyone being super nice on the surface. You become very popular.
What I had found is that although I tried to live by the teachings of Jesus I had the teachings of Paul to contend with, so when I hung out with sinner’s people said that I was casting pearls before swine.
When I listened to sinners view points and agreed I was called a Heretic. It even went so far as to people call me unsaved because I shopped on a Sunday.
The (Jesus) Christian does not exist today only the (Pauline) Christian, Unfortunately both these people had conflicting views.
One thing that converted me was that Unforgivable Sin, How any God in existence could put a red button in-front of Christians (People who are actually on his side) like that. How could he word it in a way that is so generic that literally no-one knows what it means? Then my girlfriend made the comment. Why a God would let a Paedophile / Rapist and Murderer into heaven but exclude a Christian because they accidently pressed the red button?! That is the biggest injustice ever.
So armed with my knowledge of the problems with Theology I prayed to God, I said:
‘Father – I am losing my mind here I need peace, If you don’t give me it me and you are no longer friends but I will seek to disprove your very existence, I know enough of the problems in your Word which will boost my distance in the path, Please don’t make me do this!’
And Gods Response ‘ …. ‘ Typical!
At that point I said well if you exist and want me you know where I am – I won’t accept anything less than a revelation like Paul on the road to Damascus. I also said father this is your fault I do not believe.
Obviously since this I have seen more evidence that God does not exist than when I started, an active God would not let all the problems in this world occur. Considering he wiped out the earth before and even destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah either this entire world as it stands is still not as bad as them or it could be that God does not actually exist.

(November 19, 2013 at 1:11 am)Godschild Wrote: I'll say to you like I have others death will answer this question ultimately.

GC

Listen, I'm being completely serious here: you don't know that. You are just threatening people now, and pretending to know things that you don't know.

I would remind you that this precise line was what got savedbygracethrufaith banned. Cut the shit: there's literally no useful or helpful purpose for that line.

(November 19, 2013 at 2:53 am)snowtracks Wrote: by revelation, it's known...

...that what passed for 'knowledge' in the ancient Near East is more accurately called 'ramblings of a lunatic' today?

(November 19, 2013 at 6:31 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(November 19, 2013 at 1:11 am)Godschild Wrote: I'll say to you like I have others death will answer this question ultimately.

GC

Listen, I'm being completely serious here: you don't know that. You are just threatening people now, and pretending to know things that you don't know.

I would remind you that this precise line was what got savedbygracethrufaith banned. Cut the shit: there's literally no useful or helpful purpose for that line.

See the problem is that your Bible creates a little loop paradox here.

Two verses.

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Matthew 18:9 - And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

So literally put If you 'THINK' you have been to HEAVEN or HELL then you are contradicting the very bible as it is explicitly said that no one has ever went and returned.

So therefore @GC your argument is weakened in that you have no evidence that anything does happen. Because the only source of proof and the bible makes sure that you cant even leave room for doubt.

The other problem is that God (YAHWEH) in the Old Testament / Angels even Elijah and Enoch all ascended up and down. Heck even Michael the ArchAngel came down from heaven so Johns statement directly contradicts the idea of the Virgin Birth as where did the Angel go as clearly according to the Infallible word of God it could not go back to heaven!

So I ask basied on your bible that we can deomostrate has a contridcition everywhere how do you maintain your faith of an Afterlife when even the OT (Half your Book) is absolutely silent on it.

(November 19, 2013 at 1:11 am)Godschild Wrote:

(November 18, 2013 at 11:47 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: I can understand how cognitive dissonance makes it extremely difficult for theist to grasp that what they are experiencing is not real.

However, there comes a point when blatantly ignoring the knowledge that there is absolutely zero evidence to support the existence of a deity just to maintain one's grasp on a delusion becomes downright frustrating for those who reside in reality.

Theists who maintain that faith equals knowledge or truth are the most ignorant people on the face of the earth.

I'll say to you like I have others death will answer this question ultimately.

GC

The answer will be "you're dead", but you won't hear a thing because you're dead.