Quote:Are you clueless to biblical History?

Biblical history is an oxymoron, Drippy.

(November 20, 2013 at 2:44 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:No. If God himself did what he wanted to enact, we would have not only a personal relationship with him, we would have direct, incontrovertible proof that would keep us from failing to realize the supposed truth.

Who are you to say "we"/Christians don't?

The fact that you can't convince anyone else, unless you use indoctrination...

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote: What is the alternitive to being a sheep? It is being a goat. Both are subject to the Shepards Crook, One is favored and one is not.

Um, no. A goat would be subject to a goatherd. The clue's in the name,

Oh, Drich... how many times have we gone through this, on other threads?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 4:35 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Would all of that have happened, had you not believed that a god exists?

There is a difference between simple acknoweledgment, and living your life a certain way because you know something to be true.

My 'belief' in God was like the mustard seed Christ talked about. That is all the faith I had in the beginning. a strong wind could have taken it away. So rather than do that I planted that mustard seed in the things God says to plant them in, and it flourished. Now I can honestly say With every ounce of my being I know God exists and works daily in my life. why? because of all of the things I have witnessed. I can see and even with some marginal accuracy predict how things will play out. Not because I am special or a prophet. i simply know the pattern God uses in my life and i look for it. When I see it I know to either knuckle down or move on. again because after 20+ years even a dullard like myself gets the carrot and the stick method.

Something went right in your life after your attitude towards it changed... perhaps due to your new found belief. Good for you... still not evidence of any exterior force.
Sure, lots of luck... Then you have some 2 million children dying yearly of a curable disease, because.... they're unlucky... Was the mustard's seed not enough for them?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Would it have happened, if you believed in some other god? Would you think it was that other god working in your favor instead of the one you think now? Would it have happened, if you were part of a polytheist religion?

I'd wager "yes" to all questions... and corresponding uselessness of the god assumption.

I tried 'other gods' for a while, and they did not work for me. If they had maybe I would be pushing some other religion, why? Because if I witnessed and experience what I have in Christianity to be true in another religion then that God would have indeed been 'all powerful.'

"A rose by anyother name would still smell just as sweet."-Billy Bard.

In the end understand this is How God offers Proof. Not in one or two instances, but over a life time.

You should have given those other gods a bit more time.
Had you done that, and those lucky things happened in your life... would that mean that those other gods were real? Oh... they would be just different depictions of the one true god, of course... You'd claim them to be the one true god(s). What would that make your current one?... the false one?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:You were talking about some "biblical history"... I just borrowed the expression. You tell me, which history.

You lost me.

I never got you, in the first place, so lets just drop this one...

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Not making extraordinary claims about the events... no reason to doubt them... and many such events can be corroborated by archeology, like the great fire of Rome...

Seriously? have you read any ancient text? ANYTHING they could not explain was attributed to some extraordinary claim. especially Egyptian, Greeks and the ancient Chinese. Read how some of their battles were won, or how water was brought to a given city or town, or how leaders came to power. What makes these 'claims' legit is context and how or what they were trying to describe or depict.

Oh yeah... ALL ancient texts, all ancient stories claim some divine intervention on any and all businesses... [/sarcasm]

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Are you a muslim, now?
They're the ones who think were all born muslims, but are then misled...

In a sence so does Christianity. In that we are all born 'hell bound/insert religion here' and we must elect to receive redemption.

So, are you telling me that, if you raise a child with no concept of a god, with no possible way to acquire that concept from other people, nor books, nor tv, nor the internet... that child will have that concept inbuilt... and it is directed at your particular version of a god?
Somehow, I seriously doubt that.
Not sure if someone has made that experiment, but I'd be interested in knowing the result.

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:And yet, i fails on many people... and it leads many people towards the wrong gods... are you sure it's not some mental state of belief in the proxies... leading to belief in the stories?
Like, "I believe my parents for they have no reason to lie to me... they are also right about everything, so they must be right about this god business."

This only works if your 'parents' or whatever source of religion you have substituted for the Holy Spirit was indeed the Holy Spirit trying to mislead you.

Are you seriously suggesting that 2/3 of the world's population is being misled by the holy spirit itself?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:And your experiences can all be dismissed as not divine intervention.

Who said anything about divine intervention? When God clears a path in your life for you to follow because you did what you were asked it is not divine intervention, at that point the happenings you experience is called divine provenance. Because you are following the will/Plan/provenance God has for your life. Why would He then interveene?

yeah... right... like it was divine provenance that I married a person with the same blood type with me (and, most likely, all my 3 kids) and they will all contribute with some blood when I'm old and feeble and need it...
It can't be just luck...It can't be statistical possibility... actual, given my blood type, it was statistically probable, I just never gave it any thought.
You keep putting your god in the place of dumb luck.
Want to play some poker?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:God told me nothing... People wrote stories about an entity telling them things. It doesn't make it real.

What makes a treasure map real? What people may think about it? or whether or not you can use it to find the treasure it says is burried under the "X"? The Same is true with the bible. You can dismiss it, or you can test it, and see if God is waiting where He says He will be waiting for you.

Ah... but that's the thing. I don't think you found any god. I think you found a mental state which makes you think that a god has been blessing your way... while you were following the book that details how to attain that mental state, in a brilliant insight into human psychology, provided by ancient people.

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:If the president called me, I'd think it was a prank call, at first.
Provided enough assurances, I'd eventually take his invitation seriously.

You've gotten your call in the bible, I am here to offer what assureances that I have experienced. In the end it is up to you to take him up on His offer or go about your business.

Ah... the bible. the book.
There are other books, detailing other ways to attain that mental state, some requiring a belief... others not...
Why should I take your book as accurate? Because it worked for you?
How about Abdulah who claims that the qu'ran worked for him? Or Patel who claims the Vedas worked marvelously for him? Or Yan, who claims that Siddhārtha showed him the right way?

So, given all the experiences of different paths to different goals... which can be seen as different expressions of the same mental states... which should I choose? Which is the actual one that details reality?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:See how it would take the actual president to contact me?... I see no such thing from your god-thing...

When my wife and I got married we sent the president an invitation. We got back a written response. Do you think He answered personally? Do you think His action contradicted what the written response said His actions were going to be? The answer is No on both accounts. He did exactly what his 'staff' said he was going to do.
Point? There is a proceedure in which one must follow to have the president formally show up to one's wedding, and whether he goes or not, the initial process is still the same.

If you want to be considered by God or even some one as lowly as the President you must approach them through the perscribed Channels. Otherwise why would you expect to have anyone like that bend over backwards for you? Because you think you are entitled? Your entitlement and $5 might buy you a cup of coffie nowadays.

Are you saying god operates like a human head of government?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:And that I just can't accept.

Why?

Because of all the conflicting representations of the divine. I can't chose one. I have no way to chose one. No criteria. Hence, I choose none.
You say "read the bible", abdulah says "read the qu'ran", etc, etc...

I can't accept your version over the other person's...

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Beats me... people who come here already have the concept of god in their minds... how did they come across it? Partial or total indoctrination... Some then lean towards the belief, some towards the disbelief.
In those 2 thousand years... people had been indoctrinated prior to it. If not in the god of the trinity, then in some other god.... with the concept of god changing in people's minds slowly or abruptly by force... indoctrination leads to some belief or another... if that belief becomes shunned, the belief in some other overtakes it, because ignorant people would always require some explanation to keep their minds at ease, to keep them under the influence of some higher power... to... to be sheep.

What is the alternitive to being a sheep? It is being a goat. Both are subject to the Shepards Crook, One is favored and one is not.

err... I'd prefer to be a human being. Born of human parents, giving birth to human offspring... the works!

(November 19, 2013 at 12:19 pm)I am God Wrote: In my readings I've come to the conclusion that this myth was created because they needed it to be true.

Who needed it to be true and why, you're generalizing?

Quote:The flash point for the Christian faith are the big four gospels. Everything else flows from this. You can see that Luke and Matthew are full of nonsense and lies. They say Christ was born in Bethlehem when most everywhere else he is referred to as Jesus of Nazareth or the Nazarene.

The Nazarene comes from the OT, seems to put a dent in your thoughts on "it all comes from the Gospels." Have you even read the scriptures, what you have posted begs the question.

Quote:The reason they stopped in Bethlehem was because Joseph was on his way to Bethlehem to take part in a Census that never happened during the governorship of Quirinius who didn't take such a position until 10 YEARS after Herod's death who supposedly tried to kill baby Jesus. None of this matches up at all. So it is clearly a work of fiction. But why?

The Quirinius census has not be worked yet, but as archaeology continues to uncover the past we may find that a census was taken. We have enough info on Herod the Great to know he was more than capable of such an act. So it's not clearly a fictional work far from it. As for your but why, I thought you already had that worked out. Apparently not if you have to ask the question after you've given the answer.

Quote:The answer is because Jesus (the man) failed at the task of being Messiah as it was understood by the Jews (The people that invented the concept of Messiah).

You can prove the Jew's invented the concept of a messiah I take it?

Quote:Messiah was supposed to save Israel and her people. Not figuratively but in real life. He was supposed to be another King David. A ruler that would free the Jews from foreign rule, reestablish the 12 tribes, and be King of Israel and rule by the law of God. Christ did none of this. Israel and their temple were shortly thereafter destroyed.

You do know Jesus gave a prophecy about the Temple being destroyed. You should really read the scriptures and you might learn there are prophecies on Christ's birth, death and resurrection and then His second coming were He returns to lead and establish the new Kingdom.

Quote:Their people all but exterminated.

Really when was this?

Quote: And their culture nearly pounded and lost in the sand forever.

Really when was this?

Quote:So in ever sense of the word Messiah... Jesus failed. So a new concept of Messiah was created.

Really you can bring us some proof of your statement, right?

Quote:One where this kingdom wouldn't be one of this world but in heaven. Where he would save our souls... not our flesh. And Messiah could not be defeated because he could not be killed. To quote Obi Wan Kenobi " If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Jesus said it first, Christ came to save the whole man, not just part, read the scriptures.

Throughout time... people claiming to be Messiah (King of the Jews) were killed by more powerful folks like the Romans or even the Jews themselves. So they needed a bullet proof messiah. One that existed on a plain that couldn't be reached by swords and bows. Being brought back from the dead was a pretty common tale back then. There were other street preachers like Jesus that claimed to be able to raise the dead... and people just took it as a matter of fact because it was a time when people believed in magic and sorcery. Wasn't that impressive of a claim to make back then. It'd be like someone now saying they saw a ghost. People just believe that stuff.
[/quote]

You believe in ghost do you. Seems people were astonished every time Jesus brought someone back from the dead, Lazarus was dead four days, and Christ raise them all body and soul, not just their soul.
Those who claimed they could do not have a following 2000 years later, can you name just one of the fake Jesus.

GC