(November 28, 2013 at 2:49 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote:

(November 28, 2013 at 2:47 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: There is ample evidence that gay men voluntarily have sex with women.

Hall of shame, now!

Yes. Fair point.
I edited the post to qualify that gay men [can] voluntarily have sex with women.

(November 28, 2013 at 2:53 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Yes. Fair point.
I edited the post to qualify that gay men [can] voluntarily have sex with women.

Its not so much what you said, but what it implies. You are using this to argue that being gay is a choice. It is possible for a gay man to have sex with a woman, that doesn't make them any less gay than they were before they did it.

(November 28, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Godlesspanther Wrote:

(November 28, 2013 at 2:30 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Seems that legal same sex marriage in Canada hasn't helped to improve monogamy and commitment and True Love.
Perhaps promiscuity and infidelity are things that hedonistic gay people cant choose to control EITHER.

Whatever. Shall we look at the sexual behavior of fundies?

Yep sure. Define "fundie". Are they born that way?

Quote:You avoided the subsequent dilemma that I brought up.

I didn't avoid it. It's a false dilemma. Legalized marijuana or racial segregation? Why cant we have either/both/neither?

Quote:Which, in your opinion, is worse?

What if one leads to the other? What if they are both related to sin and therefore you cant accept either.

Quote: You have no bible to base your decision on. Neither is mentioned in the Bible. You have to think for yourself on this one.

I have a few bibles.
And they do provide answers to the questions you ask about drugs and racism.
And the reader of the bible is free to accept or reject the advice.

(November 28, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(November 28, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Godlesspanther Wrote: You avoided the subsequent dilemma that I brought up.

I didn't avoid it. It's a false dilemma. Legalized marijuana or racial segregation? Why cant we have either/both/neither?

(November 28, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(November 28, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Godlesspanther Wrote: You have no bible to base your decision on. Neither is mentioned in the Bible. You have to think for yourself on this one.

I have a few bibles.

Definitely worthy of kudos

P.s. How come you're not quote-mining me any more?

(November 28, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(November 28, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Godlesspanther Wrote: Whatever. Shall we look at the sexual behavior of fundies?

Yep sure. Define "fundie". Are they born that way?

Quote:You avoided the subsequent dilemma that I brought up.

I didn't avoid it. It's a false dilemma. Legalized marijuana or racial segregation? Why cant we have either/both/neither?

Quote:Which, in your opinion, is worse?

What if one leads to the other? What if they are both related to sin and therefore you cant accept either.

Quote: You have no bible to base your decision on. Neither is mentioned in the Bible. You have to think for yourself on this one.

I have a few bibles.
And they do provide answers to the questions you ask about drugs and racism.
And the reader of the bible is free to accept or reject the advice.

It's a hypothetical moral dilemma. You can't choose both or neither because that defeats the entire purpose of a moral dilemma -- to establish a hierarchy of morality. You don't like either option, that's clear. The point is to ask yourself which one of those do you find more repugnant on a personal level. I just don't get why you keep responding to say that you refuse to respond -- that's -- let's face it -- pointless.

Would you rather be given a ten-dollar-bill or a punch in the nose? Even though there is nobody offering you those options you can still speculate as to which you would prefer. Or is that too difficult. Would you insist on both or neither?

Let's try it again. Would you rather live in a country in which marijuana is legal with reasonable restrictions on age, where and when it can be used, no driving, etc. or would you prefer to live in a society in which the Jim Crow laws of the pre-civil rights South US enforced?

I honestly have no idea why it is that you would be the least bit hesitant to actually answer that. I suspect that you are just being a butthead.

(November 28, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I have a few bibles.
And they do provide answers to the questions you ask about drugs and racism.
And the reader of the bible is free to accept or reject the advice.

The really interesting part about your bible's answer to racism, is that in many cases you would be the one disadvantaged by it, unless you're from the tribe of Israel. According to the bible, being from anywhere else means you can be killed, enslaved, lots of things. Hell, you aren't even saved: Jesus mentioned specifically that he was there as the savior of Israel and nowhere else (Matthew 15:23) where he likens those of other races to dogs.

Still in favor of what the bible says about racism?

(November 29, 2013 at 1:20 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(November 28, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I have a few bibles.
And they do provide answers to the questions you ask about drugs and racism.
And the reader of the bible is free to accept or reject the advice.

The really interesting part about your bible's answer to racism, is that in many cases you would be the one disadvantaged by it, unless you're from the tribe of Israel. According to the bible, being from anywhere else means you can be killed, enslaved, lots of things. Hell, you aren't even saved: Jesus mentioned specifically that he was there as the savior of Israel and nowhere else (Matthew 15:23) where he likens those of other races to dogs.

Still in favor of what the bible says about racism?

Jesus repeatedly says throughout Matthew and Mark that he is here for the Jews only (the Children, The Children of Israel, Israel etc.)

Christians ignore it - yet another nonsensical element.

(November 29, 2013 at 1:44 am)max-greece Wrote: Jesus repeatedly says throughout Matthew and Mark that he is here for the Jews only (the Children, The Children of Israel, Israel etc.)

Christians ignore it - yet another nonsensical element.

It must be our fault: we're taking it out of context, and haven't interpreted it to mean the exact opposite of the words that are there. What heathens we are.

Hey, does anyone else find it an amazing coincidence that the only verses that need interpretation are the ones that, when taken straight, would paint god and christianity in a bad light?

Esquillax,

God or Christianity surely...

Quote:Drich said: God set up a soceity that allowed for slavery, and condemned homosexuality. Therefore slavery is not as bad as homosexuality. The fact that soceity says that your intolerance should be reversed only speaks to declining 'morality' in soceity.

I am positively flabbergasted that any 21st Century person could make such a statement as that. To begin by stating that “God set up a society that allowed for slavery and condemned homosexuality. Therefore slavery is not as bad as homosexuality.” is ignoring that this was the ancient world, and that slavery was pretty much universally accepted in that long ago barbaric time. The world was like that. Yahweh was a tribal god, only interested in what the Israelites were up to insofar as “setting up” anything. Now we are all these centuries later, I don't see any sky-daddies “setting up” anything. Where are the religious leaders advocating ownership of people by other people? Yes, you do have many who are condemning gay people in general for being “sinful” and advocating continuing to deny giving them the rights they are entitled to as fellow human beings, but if Drich is correct why is slavery not OK nowadays if it is OK with God?

Quote:Drich said: Whether that makes me a slave, slave owner or none of the above if we were forced to pick one of the two societies I will pick slavery.

I truly don't think that you are going to get many people to join you on that one, Drich.

Quote:Drich said: Slavery is not intrinsically bad. It is what man does with slavery that makes it evil..

OED: intrinsic- belonging naturally, essential

Excuse me, but I think that it is, indeed, very much "intrinsically" bad.

I really cannot help but feel flabbergasted that this guy actually said this. This dude is so twisted that it is beyond Bachman, this is truly world class wackness. He probably has a Michelle Bachman judy doll stashed in his bedroom closet.

Quote:  
Drich Wrote:  Slavery is not intrinsically bad. It is what man does with slavery that makes it evil..
Ivy replied:
Claiming ownership of another human being and using them for your own wants is not intrinsically bad? How is it good? Or is it not intrinsically good or bad? It's neutral?
Drich responds:
It's neutral. Do you have kids? Have you ever used the term "my kids?" Anyone using that term has expressed ownership of another human being. Even so do we consider this to be an evil thing?

Of course not, what makes ownership of another person good or bad is what you do with the life you have control over.

I have no idea if Drich has been or is a parent or not. But my wife and I raised 3 daughters and 1 son to adulthood. We were responsible for the welfare of our kids when they were minors, but we certainly did not “own” them. When your child is born a birth certificate is issued, not a registration of ownership. Responsibilty for the welfare of is not a form of ownership. Could this guy be a closet Dominionist? Considering the excrement that keeps flowing from his keyboard I rather think he would love a theocracy. Then he could bring back all that good stuff that would suit his deity's standard: slavery, stoning uppity adolescents, stoning people for mowing their lawns on the sabbath. You know, stuff good God-fearing people would all love to have.

Quote:Drich Wrote:  Slavery is not intrinsically bad. It is what man does with slavery that makes it evil..
Kitanetos responded:
You are reaching.

Is there some sort of mechanism that goes off in your mind that makes you protect your evil god no matter how logical the argument in support of his evilness?

So far as I can see religious belief is entirely an emotional response kind of thing. As a result, trying to dislodge it using logic is like as not going to be a no go. You've been taught this since you can remember and you “know” the truth of it. I see God and man as a parent-child relationship. Look at the dynamics of it. God the Heavenly Father, who is supposed to have made everything, even ourselves. And just like dad, he supposedly loves us, but you had damn well better do as he says. Lots of kids are scared of their fathers. Many still are even after they become adults, they just never get over it. Good God-fearing people (I really hate that term), well, that really tells you all you need to know. If you are afraid of someone then that isn't love. No matter how much they tell you they do. If you are afraid, then there is a reason why, and it isn't love they have for you it is possessiveness.
For God so loved the world that he committed the first case of entrapment in the Garden of Eden against two naifs who just wanted knowledge. So they did something that really was not any big deal, and he acted like they committed multiple felonies. Then along comes this fucked up notion of “original sin” that we all get stuck with. The whole notion of sin is bullshit. Yes there is right and wrong but there is no such thing as sin. Not only that, he further proved how much he loved the world by talking some gullible half-wit into almost killing his own son just to please him. Doesn't matter that he stayed Abraham's hand, it was still a sick thing to do. But he wasn't done yet, just because people kind of pissed him off in general he decides to waste the whole lot of them, along with every other living thing with a flood – he really knows how to show his love, you gotta admit. And you all can think of lots of other wonderful shows of affection in that wonderful old tome, I am sure.
Really, all it comes down to is “I made you, you are mine and I will do whatever I damned well please with you people just because.... I'll entrap you, set standards that cannot possibly be met, be vindictive and dump all kinds of evil on the good and reward the bad for no particular reason. And then send the bulk of you to a fiery pit just because I'm like that. And those of you who get to heaven can spend eternity telling me how wonderful I am.” And all those fundie loons will agree, after all, godsaidit.