(December 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote:

(December 2, 2013 at 10:20 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Yes.


I'm happy. I dont have a drug problem. I dont want for anything. I'm a pacifist. I'm not depressed. Have no self-harm issues. And money cant buy any of the the things which are most precious in my life.

Demonstrate how your happiness and contentment are byproducts of your religion and I'll do the same for my atheism. I doubt you're equipped for the challenge.

Interesting question. What manner of demonstrations would you consider appropriate? Obviously personal experience and anecdotal reports are invalid as they are, by definition, seething with selection bias.

So to support the case for religion I looked for some actual large scale properly carried out studies, and found a rather good multi centre cohort study!

Quote:Spiritual and religious beliefs as risk factors for the onset of major depression: an international cohort study.
Leurent B, Nazareth I, Bellón-Saameño J, Geerlings MI, Maaroos H, Saldivia S, Svab I, Torres-González F, Xavier M, King M.
Source

Mental Health Sciences Unit, Faculty of Brain Sciences, University College London Medical School, UK.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Several studies have reported weak associations between religious or spiritual belief and psychological health. However, most have been cross-sectional surveys in the U.S.A., limiting inference about generalizability. An international longitudinal study of incidence of major depression gave us the opportunity to investigate this relationship further.
METHOD:

Data were collected in a prospective cohort study of adult general practice attendees across seven countries. Participants were followed at 6 and 12 months. Spiritual and religious beliefs were assessed using a standardized questionnaire, and DSM-IV diagnosis of major depression was made using the Composite International Diagnostic Interview (CIDI). Logistic regression was used to estimate incidence rates and odds ratios (ORs), after multiple imputation of missing data.
RESULTS:

The analyses included 8318 attendees. Of participants reporting a spiritual understanding of life at baseline, 10.5% had an episode of depression in the following year compared to 10.3% of religious participants and 7.0% of the secular group (p<0.001). However, the findings varied significantly across countries, with the difference being significant only in the U.K., where spiritual participants were nearly three times more likely to experience an episode of depression than the secular group [OR 2.73, 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.59–4.68]. The strength of belief also had an effect, with participants with strong belief having twice the risk of participants with weak belief. There was no evidence of religion acting as a buffer to prevent depression after a serious life event.
CONCLUSIONS:

These results do not support the notion that religious and spiritual life views enhance psychological well-being.

Ummmm....

Shit.


Oh well, correlation is not the same as causation. And It appears that religion only correlates with higher rates of depression in the UK (having been through a few denominations and types of UK churches i;m not actually surprised about that).

I hate when the data does not back up my prejudice.

Errrr, repent etc.

(December 4, 2013 at 8:35 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: . And It appears that religion only correlates with higher rates of depression in the UK (having been through a few denominations and types of UK churches i;m not actually surprised about that).

Well, we are a miserable bunch over here. Crap weather! But also the UK is a lot older than the US so we I guess we have had time to grow out of our obsession with religion.

(December 4, 2013 at 8:35 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

(December 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote: Demonstrate how your happiness and contentment are byproducts of your religion and I'll do the same for my atheism. I doubt you're equipped for the challenge.

Interesting question. What manner of demonstrations would you consider appropriate? Obviously personal experience and anecdotal reports are invalid as they are, by definition, seething with selection bias.

So to support the case for religion I looked for some actual large scale properly carried out studies, and found a rather good multi centre cohort study!

---

Quote:Spiritual and religious beliefs as risk factors for the onset of major depression: an international cohort study.
Leurent B, Nazareth I, Bellón-Saameño J, Geerlings MI, Maaroos H, Saldivia S, Svab I, Torres-González F, Xavier M, King M.
Source

Mental Health Sciences Unit, Faculty of Brain Sciences, University College London Medical School, UK.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Several studies have reported weak associations between religious or spiritual belief and psychological health. However, most have been cross-sectional surveys in the U.S.A., limiting inference about generalizability. An international longitudinal study of incidence of major depression gave us the opportunity to investigate this relationship further.
METHOD:

Data were collected in a prospective cohort study of adult general practice attendees across seven countries. Participants were followed at 6 and 12 months. Spiritual and religious beliefs were assessed using a standardized questionnaire, and DSM-IV diagnosis of major depression was made using the Composite International Diagnostic Interview (CIDI). Logistic regression was used to estimate incidence rates and odds ratios (ORs), after multiple imputation of missing data.
RESULTS:

The analyses included 8318 attendees. Of participants reporting a spiritual understanding of life at baseline, 10.5% had an episode of depression in the following year compared to 10.3% of religious participants and 7.0% of the secular group (p<0.001). However, the findings varied significantly across countries, with the difference being significant only in the U.K., where spiritual participants were nearly three times more likely to experience an episode of depression than the secular group [OR 2.73, 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.59–4.68]. The strength of belief also had an effect, with participants with strong belief having twice the risk of participants with weak belief. There was no evidence of religion acting as a buffer to prevent depression after a serious life event.
CONCLUSIONS:

These results do not support the notion that religious and spiritual life views enhance psychological well-being.

---

Ummmm....

Shit.


Oh well, correlation is not the same as causation. And It appears that religion only correlates with higher rates of depression in the UK (having been through a few denominations and types of UK churches i;m not actually surprised about that).

I hate when the data does not back up my prejudice.

Errrr, repent etc.

Have to agree Jacob - very unexpected findings indeed.

Of course for the UK its possible that religion and spirituality tend to attract people who are already depressed, or who have a tendency towards depression, in which case correlation and causation would be different.

Its also worth bearing in mind that in the main Church of England churches are cold and depressing places to spend any time.

Greek Orthodox churches are often quite beautiful in contrast.

(December 5, 2013 at 4:32 am)max-greece Wrote:

(December 4, 2013 at 8:35 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Interesting question. What manner of demonstrations would you consider appropriate? Obviously personal experience and anecdotal reports are invalid as they are, by definition, seething with selection bias.

So to support the case for religion I looked for some actual large scale properly carried out studies, and found a rather good multi centre cohort study!

---

---

Ummmm....

Shit.


Oh well, correlation is not the same as causation. And It appears that religion only correlates with higher rates of depression in the UK (having been through a few denominations and types of UK churches i;m not actually surprised about that).

I hate when the data does not back up my prejudice.

Errrr, repent etc.

Have to agree Jacob - very unexpected findings indeed.

Of course for the UK its possible that religion and spirituality tend to attract people who are already depressed, or who have a tendency towards depression, in which case correlation and causation would be different.

Its also worth bearing in mind that in the main Church of England churches are cold and depressing places to spend any time.

Greek Orthodox churches are often quite beautiful in contrast.

Indeed!
Although it would do disservice to such a well carried out the service to misinterpret the results. This is a cohort study which can therefor establish a correlation, but not a causal link. As max said one has to consider common cause.

The question being "Does religion promote happiness" we are studying religious groups against atheist ones. Let's flip that and say "Does aspirin help headaches".

If we looked at people who take aspirin and compare them to people who don't, we might very well find that there is a higher incidence of headaches in the "takes aspirin" group. That does not mean aspirin caused the headaches, nor that it doesn't help. It's a correlative, not a causal link.

That's why the study, which is rather well written up, speaks of religion not acting as a buffer. It's a forward looking variable rather than a backwards one.

I suspect there is a common cause of both religion and depression.

Fascinating stuff, especially the variance between countries. That suggests to me that it's the style of religiosity rather than the object of it, which is significant (in either direction).

Science is fun!

Quote:Fascinating stuff, especially the variance between countries. That suggests to me that it's the style of religiosity rather than the object of it, which is significant (in either direction).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

That there is a country difference is probably indicative of the way a given country responds to religion in general.

In other words if we take 2 religious leaders of the past - George W Bush and Tony Blair, George would freely and often refer to his beliefs in God as governing his decisions whilst Tony would have to go to great lengths to show that his beliefs and his actions as Prime Minister were entirely separate.

Neither would have been electable in the other's country.

It would appear, therefore that belief is perceived as a positive in the US (although primarily only Christian Belief) but a negative in the UK.

That there are, consequently, relatively more depressed theists in the UK than in the US (in comparison to ratios for atheists) probably isn't surprising.

This might be what you were saying, I am not sure.

(December 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote:

(December 2, 2013 at 10:20 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Yes.


I'm happy. I dont have a drug problem. I dont want for anything. I'm a pacifist. I'm not depressed. Have no self-harm issues. And money cant buy any of the the things which are most precious in my life.

Demonstrate how your happiness and contentment are byproducts of your religion and I'll do the same for my atheism. I doubt you're equipped for the challenge.

My religion holds that we are not the efficient cause of our own existence.
I wouldn't even exist if not for The Creator referred to by my religion.

Me and my parents and their parents and theirs, have something to be grateful for BUT in addition, unlike you, I have Someone to be grateful to.

What have you got?

Your religion - the no God hypothesis - is like looking at a temporary Christmas present under a temporary Christmas tree and thinking no one put it there, it just randomly appeared, there's no one to thank. No gratitude needed. Christmas presents are neither created nor destroyed. They have always been there. And it won't matter whether you open it or throw it in the trash can or ignore it.

The past-eternal, uncaused, perpetual universe won't know and 'IT' won't care about what happened with a few microscopic specs of carbon in your family living room at Christmas time.
...2013 years after a man named Jesus came to plead to humans that God DOES care.

Even if you are as happy (richly blessed) as me, what you temporarily have is accidental and random and ultimately pointless, because it is ALL the ongoing consequence of unguided, uncaring, unintelligent happenstance.

Merry Christmas everyone.

(December 5, 2013 at 6:56 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Your religion - the no God hypothesis - is like looking at a temporary Christmas present under a temporary Christmas tree and thinking no one put it there, it just randomly appeared, there's no one to thank. No gratitude needed. Christmas presents are neither created nor destroyed. They have always been there. And it won't matter whether you open it or throw it in the trash can or ignore it.

I'll ignore the religion crack and the one about the "no god hypothesis," because I think even you're smart enough to recognize what's wrong with those and you put them in to be a shit stirrer, but to whom do I owe my thanks? I owe my thanks to the people who came before me, who worked hard to advance human civilization to the point that I could be born into it. I owe my thanks to the many alive today who share that civilization with me and work every day to make it a better place. I owe my thanks to my family and friends, whom I care about and enhance my life with theirs. I owe my thanks to those who will come after me, and it's my moral responsibility to make the world a little better than I entered it, for them.

The god that you can't even demonstrate exists isn't the thing that makes them all special and worthwhile. If they weren't created by space magic, their lives and works don't suddenly become invalidated. And if you actually, honestly think that they do, then your life is infinitely more hollow and joyless than mine, and I pity you for it.

Things end, Lion: that doesn't mean they're pointless. Their brevity is a part of what makes them precious. Maybe someday you'll grow up and realize that.

(December 5, 2013 at 6:56 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Me and my parents and their parents and theirs, have something to be grateful for BUT in addition, unlike you, I have Someone to be grateful to.

What have you got?

I am grateful to my parents for giving me a great education, a good work ethic, a love of literature, a healthy body, putting up with my endless dental disasters and giving me great (and expensive) teeth, and never hitting me.

Quote:Your religion - the no God hypothesis - is like looking at a temporary Christmas present under a temporary Christmas tree and thinking no one put it there, it just randomly appeared, there's no one to thank. No gratitude needed. Christmas presents are neither created nor destroyed. They have always been there. And it won't matter whether you open it or throw it in the trash can or ignore it.

Why isn't gratitude appropriate? I'm thrilled that I was born me, in a time and place where women have opportunities, in a socio-economic class that provided me with a really great up-bringing. Aside from my parents there is no one to thank, but I'm grateful nonetheless. I won an incredible lottery- not just to be here at all, but to be here in such a privileged spot.

And I don't know why you insist on the "atheism is a religion" thing.

Quote:Even if you are as happy (richly blessed) as me, what you temporarily have is accidental and random and ultimately pointless, because it is ALL the ongoing consequence of unguided, uncaring, unintelligent happenstance.

Yes. That's why it's like winning a huge lottery. It's awesome to have won it. I have never understood why religious folks find it offensive that it's all temporary and uncertain and fleeting. That makes it important that I maximize this small life. It's only pointless if I don't find a point to it.

Lyon, do you consider the happiness of someone stoned, the same value as that of someone sober? I don't. And that's how I see you--high and happy on your god because you can give all of your worries to god and not have to think about it anymore. Things work out as they would the same as for anyone--but you don't have to worry about it, and when things do go your way, you attribute it to this god you pray to.
Furthermore, I see in science, what's happening to your brain when you pray and its the same effect for Christian Pastors, Buddhist monks, Muslims, nuns, Hindu monks, etc.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...=110997741

"Andrew Newberg, neuroscientist at the University of Pennsylvania and author of a book entitled, “How God Changes Your Brain” has been scanning the brains of religious people for more than ten years. From a Pastor who prays 2 hrs a day for the last 25 years, to nuns, to monks. Newberg One of Newberg’s test subjects was Michael Baime, a doctor at the University of Pennsylvania and a Tibetan Buddhist who has meditated at least an hour a day forthe past40 years. Baime told Newberg that during a peak meditative experience, “he feels oneness with the universe, and time slips away.†“It’s as if the present moment expands to fill all of eternity,” he explains, “that there has never been anything but this eternal now.”

While Newberg scanned Baime’s brain, the Buddhist meditated, and his brain mirrored those feelings.As was expected, his frontal lobes lit up on the screen because meditation is sheer concentration. But what Newberg found most interesting was that Baime’s parietal lobes went dark.

“This is an area that normally takes our sensory information, tries to create for us a sense of ourselves, and orient that self in the world,” he explains. “When people lose their sense of self, feel a sense of oneness, a blurring of the boundary between self and other, we have found decreases in activity in that area.”

Newberg achieved the same results with other monks he scanned. Itwas the same when he imaged the brains of Franciscan nuns praying andSikhs chanting. They all felt the same oneness with the universe. When it comes to the brain, Newberg says, spiritual experience is spiritual experience. “There is no Christian, there is noJewish,there is noMuslim, it’s just all one,” Newberg says.

Lion IRC Wrote:My religion holds that we are not the efficient cause of our own existence.
I wouldn't even exist if not for The Creator referred to by my religion.

And Muslims say Allah did it, and Jews say that Yahweh did it.

You all point at each other and say "You're wrong" and I say "I agree with all of you".

Evolution is the cause of all life, not your fictional magical sky hero or any for that matter.