(December 16, 2013 at 6:14 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: So, when a Christian loony shoots an abortion provider, all Christians bear the responsibility? More to the point, do you personally, as an atheist, feel that you bear the responsibility for Stalin's crimes?

Have you completely taken leave of your senses? A-theists. A lack of belief in god. Atheists have no shared doctrine, dogma or ideology. They don't share positive beliefs as a group.

Should we hold everyone who doesn't believe in Santa culpable for the actions of on a-Santa-ist?

Have a word with yourself

(December 16, 2013 at 7:41 am)Duck Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 6:14 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: So, when a Christian loony shoots an abortion provider, all Christians bear the responsibility? More to the point, do you personally, as an atheist, feel that you bear the responsibility for Stalin's crimes?

Have you completely taken leave of your senses? A-theists. A lack of belief in god. Atheists have no shared doctrine, dogma or ideology. They don't share positive beliefs as a group.

Should we hold everyone who doesn't believe in Santa culpable for the actions of on a-Santa-ist?

Have a word with yourself

Please don't ruin my nice thread, this person with probably provide you ten pages of nonsense. You know the kind.

I am guessing the word of the day is "Bare."

The problem with Islam is the lack of education in the major areas. The leaders use the religion dogma to manipulate the populous.

In Afghanistan, there are people whom believe the other sides of the mountain range is the end of the world. The world is flat.

I will say, Islamic countries do breed a laziness, which puts America to shame.

(December 16, 2013 at 6:29 am)JohnCrichton72 Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 6:22 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: I'm going to take a position I very very rarely take with Islam and muslims.

Violence in Islam is less common in secular countries where the governing system isn't Islamic. People may respond in a poll saying they defend violence, but they're hardly likely to do it themselves. The same goes for shariah law, many muslims if asked will say yes shariah is superior. But if they truly believed so they would not be in secular countries, many of them have left Islamic countries to come to secular countries. Although this may not apply to the first generation immigrants, it does to a certain extent, applies to those who grew up in secular countries. I'm talking about those who live in secular countries. In muslim countries they do seem to like shariah (but who really knows).

That said, yes, Islam is horrible to women and actually they're horrible to men and women, women just get it worse. And any muslims who will not condemn those practices when asked should bear responsibility.

As for terrorists activity and paedophilia rings, their culture may precipitate these things, but I don't actually consider them "Islamic", as in normal muslims will not be taught to blow shit up or kidnap children at the mosque. Their culture (which is islamic) does make these things more likely to occur because it lacks respect for human lives, women and, in general, human dignity. Also it's not condemned as harshly as it is outside of islamic cultures I think. For things like honour killings (I saw a doc on this), other muslims who did not kill the girls believed that the girls deserved it. This is a very different culture and it would be reaching to suggest it doesn't affect how muslims act.

I somewhat understand, but when you consider that the Islamic community represents extremely small minorities in most Western countries and are already targeting non-combatants as they would of their rival Muslim sects in Islamic countries.

That is to say a segregation has occurred between them and everyone and a culture put in place that would facilitate the breeding of such acts, there is no telling how the growing of said community will become a factor in the amount of radicalisation per child. I am actually just done reading something that I think you might be interested in, if this topic interests you. http://blog.theproudatheist.com/is-islam...h-mousavi/

Somewhat understand? Maybe I wasn't very clear, XD (Been up forever studying). What I mean is I do recognize the divide between what is Islamic and what is generally the product of an islamic culture. The way they treat women, mostly, is islamic teachings and if muslims are unwilling to condemn, yes of course they have to be held responsible, just like if you voted for antiabortion laws you have to be responsible for that. That's just what society expects of every adult: be responsible for what you stand for. However, the byproduct of islamic culture, can't fault many muslims for that, it's just that these actions are more prevalent in these cultures, but it's not directly islamic and therefore we don't know what positions muslims take. And extremism takes a certain type of environment to breed, usually with a lot of desperation and seclusion, something I find hard to attribute to muslims in general.

Yes there is a segregation by many muslim communities, but I'm of the opinion that they'll dilute sufficiently after one or two generations. I'm more optimistic about this, I must admit. But muslim countries ... god knows what's going to happen. The thing is a theocracy isn't something someone like you and me, who've lived in secular countries, can accept. The problem becomes real when those who have never lived in theocracies think that they could (fundamentalists born and raised in secular countries), because as you probably know, you only realize what freedoms you enjoy when you lose it.

Thanks for the link, I'll get around to it.

(December 16, 2013 at 7:46 am)Dragonetti Wrote: I am guessing the word of the day is "Bare."

The problem with Islam is the lack of education in the major areas. The leaders use the religion dogma to manipulate the populous.

In Afghanistan, there are people whom believe the other sides of the mountain range is the end of the world. The world is flat.

I will say, Islamic countries do breed a laziness, which puts America to shame.

I am inclined to disagree, a lot of Western Islamic Jihadists are educated to the same degree as any other university student. In fact to drive the point home, converts to Islam are far more likely to spontaneously combust than those born into it.

The 9/11 hijackers were not goat herders from Afghan. Another case that comes to mind, and I can provide links if you wish, a London doctor was facing a tribunal THIS MONTH for performing FGM on patients.

It is said some 66,000 females suffer from this in the UK, with no convictions. I am not sure if it said 66,000 had it done in the UK, seems unlikely though. But it also noted thousands of girls in the UK were still at risk.

(December 16, 2013 at 6:29 am)JohnCrichton72 Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 6:15 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I

I totally agree, but how do we engage.

My PhD is somewhat on this topic (though not on Islam specifically).

It does take discourse, a lot of it, from varied sources and varied opinions. IT relies on exposing the extremism inherent within and forcing out into the wider forum of ideas. Religion, after all, is just simply an idea that is up for debate in the wider public forum anyway.

The issue is that a lot of believers don't see it like that because of it's sacred connotations to them. This is the true difference between reformed Christianity in the West and, as an example, most contemporary Islamic sects; The ability to take a joke and criticism, and not equating that to a personal attack.

There is no right answer to this, unfortunately. Things like inter-faith groups help aid understanding between the religious leaders and sometimes the laity, but in the end it's just a gradual creeping of outside influences to dilute (and form) new ideologies into the future. It's actually pretty hard to stop, but you can force it in different directions.

(December 16, 2013 at 6:29 am)JohnCrichton72 Wrote: You have tried discourse with a good friend of Islamic conviction, as have I, neither of which bore fruit. What it did show was a complete lack willingness and displacement of the social responsibility, on both attempts (mine and yours).

This is true in some respects but I'd be reluctant to utilise this as a conclusion for all Muslims in all scenarios.

(December 16, 2013 at 6:29 am)JohnCrichton72 Wrote: That is not to say we give up and leave the Islamic community pitted against itself in the middle east until there is but one crazy Mohammedan left we can quarantine, but nor is it acceptable to me to put the women and children of (Insert Western country here) on the front line of a dialogue that will get them killed. Which is what has been done.

Also note the tempered nature of Christianity and Judaism came from "in house" criticism and want of change with natural societal growth (marked with great atrocities), any attempt at outside influence on the development of the Islamic culture further instils an us and them mentality, deepens segregation and provide a breeding ground for all the above.

The last paragraph is very true, and which is why I believe empowerment is the key, especially of women.

I'm obviously not an women who believes in the religion of Islam, but I would say there are really great examples of where women (And men) are pushing the boundary of liberalising extreme ideologies and combating them. Benazir Bhutto is/was one, and the increased resistance in places like Saudi to the restrictions on almost all female societal freedoms.

Another great tool to be used today which will undoubtedly speed up the process of liberalising is the interwebz. Instant information anywhere you want is one reason cited why women in Saudi are protesting about not being able to drive for example. The freedoms that we take for granted here in the UK/West in general can be seen as common place in places like Saudi (even with their restrictions), showing how the grass does indeed grow greener and what people are missing out on.

Quote:The 9/11 hijackers were not goat herders from Afghan. Another case that comes to mind, and I can provide links if you wish, a London doctor was facing a tribunal THIS MONTH for performing FGM on patients.

It is said some 66,000 females suffer from this in the UK, with no convictions. I am not sure if it said 66,000 had it done in the UK, seems unlikely though. But it also noted thousands of girls in the UK were still at risk.

The plight of women suffering from FGM (despite it being explicitly illegal in the UK) is a shame on us a society. A pox on religious sensibilities.

Must also add that this is an issue for many Northern and Central African sects of Christianity too. It's a cultural issue that is prevalent in religious communities owing to its 'sacred' connotations to believers, but it is a continental problem as well as a religious one IMHO.

I agree the big names are educated, but from being in two wars, majority of the suicide bombers are from uneducated parts of local societies. You do not hear about them on the news, because their bombing rarely are reported.

(December 16, 2013 at 7:53 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 6:29 am)JohnCrichton72 Wrote: I somewhat understand, but when you consider that the Islamic community represents extremely small minorities in most Western countries and are already targeting non-combatants as they would of their rival Muslim sects in Islamic countries.

That is to say a segregation has occurred between them and everyone and a culture put in place that would facilitate the breeding of such acts, there is no telling how the growing of said community will become a factor in the amount of radicalisation per child. I am actually just done reading something that I think you might be interested in, if this topic interests you. http://blog.theproudatheist.com/is-islam...h-mousavi/

Somewhat understand? Maybe I wasn't very clear, XD (Been up forever studying). What I mean is I do recognize the divide between what is Islamic and what is generally the product of an islamic culture. The way they treat women, mostly, is islamic teachings and if muslims are unwilling to condemn, yes of course they have to be held responsible, just like if you voted for antiabortion laws you have to be responsible for that. That's just what society expects of every adult: be responsible for what you stand for. However, the byproduct of islamic culture, can't fault many muslims for that, it's just that these actions are more prevalent in these cultures, but it's not directly islamic and therefore we don't know what positions muslims take. And extremism takes a certain type of environment to breed, usually with a lot of desperation and seclusion, something I find hard to attribute to muslims in general.

Yes there is a segregation by many muslim communities, but I'm of the opinion that they'll dilute sufficiently after one or two generations. I'm more optimistic about this, I must admit. But muslim countries ... god knows what's going to happen. The thing is a theocracy isn't something someone like you and me, who've lived in secular countries, can accept. The problem becomes real when those who have never lived in theocracies think that they could (fundamentalists born and raised in secular countries), because as you probably know, you only realize what freedoms you enjoy when you lose it.

Thanks for the link, I'll get around to it.

This doesn't really.......... I don't understand what you are saying?

---

(December 16, 2013 at 8:04 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I'm obviously not an women who believes in the religion of Islam,

I'll respond to the rest of your post in a moment, but this ^^^^^.
I read it and was thinking it was all false, for comedic effect. Because you weren't a women nor a Muslim, your avatar is very misleading. I know it sounds silly but I seen Castro and assumed a middle aged man, as if was somehow a representation of you. Go figure.

(December 16, 2013 at 9:04 am)JohnCrichton72 Wrote: [qu

(December 16, 2013 at 8:04 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I'm obviously not an women who believes in the religion of Islam,

I'll respond to the rest of your post in a moment, but this ^^^^^.
I read it and was thinking it was all false, for comedic effect. Because you weren't a women nor a Muslim, your avatar is very misleading. I know it sounds silly but I seen Castro and assumed a middle aged man, as if was somehow a representation of you. Go figure.

Heh.

White/Irish, mid 20s, and not a communist.

(December 16, 2013 at 10:24 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 9:04 am)JohnCrichton72 Wrote: [qu

I'll respond to the rest of your post in a moment, but this ^^^^^.
I read it and was thinking it was all false, for comedic effect. Because you weren't a women nor a Muslim, your avatar is very misleading. I know it sounds silly but I seen Castro and assumed a middle aged man, as if was somehow a representation of you. Go figure.

Heh.

White/Irish, mid 20s, and not a communist.

I read this ^^^^ and didn't remember updating my profile with any of the information;

"this girl is a hacker or unimaginably smar........" you were describing yourself weren't you.