Why I am an atheist Jew and a Zionist.

[max-greece]

There appears to be a number of people on this forum that simply do not get why I, and others, are unable to renounce our Judiasm.

At the same time they identify the horrors perpetrated by Israel and ask how I, and others can continue to support it.

Over the last couple of days I have, for the first time since joining, been drawn into debates on Judaism and Israel and am seeing a, sadly unsurprising, level of hatred.

I am the first to admit that Israel behaves badly at times. There are a variety of human rights issues that need to be addressed and there are a number of problems with their version of democracy - proportional representation, that allows small, ultra religious groups to hold the balance of power.

I am not going to address all of that here. I am going to address what Israel means to me and probably a huge proportion of other Jews living around the world.

I have said, time and again recently, that I am Jewish not by choice but by the fact of my birth and that this, in and of itself, could be my death sentence. Its a lesson from history. I can run, but I cannot hide.

Am I paranoid? Oh yes - but am I paranoid enough?

To be Jewish is akin to having cancer - its not contagious, but it can kill you.

Now it seems that the holocaust has blinded many here to the history of anti-Semitism. There's rather more to it than that.

Behind the tags is a simple list. It details the date, the place and the event. It covers the period from about 250 AD to the Second World War. It is not complete.

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DATE PLACE EVENT
250 C.E. Canhage Expulsion
224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion
325 C.E. Jerusalem Expulsion
351 C.E Persia Book Burning
357 C.E. Italy Property Confiscation
379 C.E. Milan Synagogue Burning
415 C.E. Alexandria Expulsion
418 C.E. Minorca Forced Conversion
469 C.E. Ipahan Holocaust
489 C.E. Antioch Synagogue Burning
506 C.E. Daphne Synagogue Burning
519 C.E. Ravenna Synagogue Burning
554 C.E. Diocese of Clement (France) Expulsion
561 C.E. Diocese of Uzes (France) Expulsion
582 C.E Merovingia Forced Conversion
612 C.E. Visigoth Spain Expulsion
628 C.E. Byzantium Forced Conversion
629 C.E. Merovingia Forced Conversion
633 C.E. Toledo Forced Conversion
638 C.E. Toledo Stake Burnings
642 C.E. Visigothic Empire Expulsion
653 C.E. Toledo Expulsion
681 C.E. Spain Forced Conversion
693 C.E. Toledo Jews Enslaved
722 C.E. Byzantium Judaism Outlawed
855 C.E. Italy Expulsion
876 C.E. Sens Expulsion
897 C.E. Narbonne Land Confiscation
945 C.E. Venice Ban on Sea Travel
1009 C.E. Orleans Massacre
1012 C.E. Rouen, Limoges & Rome Massacre
1012 C.E. Mayence Expulsion
1021 C.E. Rome Jews Burned Alive
1063 C.E. Spain Massacre
1095 C.E. Lorraine Massacre
1096 C.E. Northern France & Germany 1/3 of Jewish Population Massacred
1096 C.E. Hungary Massacre
1096 C.E. Ralisbon Massacre
1099 C.E. Jerusalem Jews Burned Alive
1100 C.E. Kiev Pogrom
1140 C.E. Germany Massacres
1146 C.E. Rhine Valley Massacre
1147 C.E. Wurzburg Massacre
1147 C.E. Belitz (Germany) Jews Burned Alive
1147 C.E. Carenton, Ramenu & Sully (France) Massacres
1171 C.E. Blois Stake Burnings
1181 C.E. France Expulsion
1181 C.E. England Property Confiscation
1188 C.E. London & York Mob Attacks
1190 C.E. Norfolk Jews Burned Alive
1191 C.E. Bray (France) Jews Burned Alive
1195 C.E. France Property Confiscation
1209 C.E. Beziers Massacre
1212 C.E. Spain Rioting and blood bath against the Jews of Toledo.
1215 C.E. Rome Lateran Council of Rome decrees that Jews must wear the "badge of shame" in all Christian countries. Jews are denied all public sector employment, and are burdened with extra taxes.
1215 C.E. Toulouse (France) Mass Arrests
1218 C.E. England Jews Forced to Wear Badges
1231 C.E. Rome Inquisition Established
1236 C.E. France Forced Conversion/Massacre
1239 C.E. London Massacre & Property Confiscation
1240 C.E. Austria Property confiscation. Jews either imprisoned, converted, expelled, or burned.
1240 C.E. France Talmud Confiscated
1240 C.E. England Book Burning
1240 C.E. Spain Forced Conversion
1242 C.E. Paris Talmud Burned
1244 C.E. Oxford Mob Attacks
1255 C.E. England Blood libel in Lincoln results in the burning / torture of many Jews & public hangings.
1261 C.E. Canterbury Mob Attacks
1262 C.E. London Mob Attacks
1264 C.E. London Mob Attacks
1264 C.E. Germany Council of Vienna declares that all Jews must wear a "pointed dunce cap." Thousands murdered.
1267 C.E. Vienna Jews Forced to Wear Horned Hats
1270 C.E. Weissenberg, Magdeburg, Arnstadt, Coblenz, Singzig, and Erfurt Jews Burned Alive
1270 C.E. England The libel of the "counterfeit coins" - all Jewish men, women and children in England imprisoned. Hundreds are hung.
1276 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion
1278 C.E. Genoa (Spain) Mob Attacks
1279 C.E. Hungary & Poland The Council of Offon denies Jews the right to all civic positions. The Jews of Hungary & Poland are forced to wear the "red badge of shame."
1283 C.E. Mayence & Bacharach Mob Attacks
1285 C.E. Munich Jews Burned Alive
1290 C.E. England King Edward I issues an edict banishing all Jews from England. Many drowned.
1291 C.E. France The Jewish refugees from England are promptly expelled from France.
1292 C.E. Italy Forced conversions & expulsion of the Italian Jewish community.
1298 C.E. Germany The libel of the "Desecrated Host" is perpetrated against the Jews of Germany. Approximately 150 Jewish communities undergo forced conversion.
1298 C.E. Franconia, Bavaria & Austria Reindfel's Decree is propagated against the Jews of Franconia and Bavarai. Riots against these Jewish communities, as well as those in Austria, result in the massacre of 100,000 Jews over a six-month period.
1306 C.E. France Expulsion
1308 C.E. Strasbourg Jews Burned Alive
1320 C.E. Toulouse & Perpigon 120 Communities Massacred & Talmud Burned
1321 C.E. Teruel Public Executions
1328 C.E. Estella 5,000 Jews Slaughtered
1348 C.E. France & Spain Jews Burned Alive
1348 C.E. Switzerland Expulsion
1349 C.E. Worms, Strasbourg, Oppenheim, Mayence, Erfurt, Bavaria & Swabia Jews Burned Alive
1349 C.E. Heilbronn (Germany) Expulsion
1349 C.E. Hungary Expulsion
1354 C.E. Castile (Spain) 12,000 Jews Slaughtered
1368 C.E. Toledo 8,000 Jews Slaughtered
1370 C.E. Majorca., Penignon & Barcelona Mob Attack
1377 C.E. Huesca (Spain) Jews Burned Alive
1380 C.E. Paris Mob Attack
1384 C.E. Nordlingen Mass Murder
1388 C.E. Strasbourg Expulsion
1389 C.E. Prague Mass Slaughter & Book Burning
1391 C.E. Castille, Toledo, Madrid, Seville, Cordova, Cuenca & Barcelona Forced Conversions & Mass Murder
1394 C.E. Germany Expulsion
1394 C.E. France Expulsion
1399 C.E. Posen (Poland) Jews Burned Alive
1400 C.E. Prague Stake Burnings
1407 C.E. Cracow Mob Attack
1415 C.E. Rome Talmud Confiscated
1422 C.E. Austria Jews Burned Alive
1422 C.E. Austria Expulsion
1424 C.E. Fribourg & Zurich Expulsion
1426 C.E. Cologne Expulsion
1431 C.E. Southern Germany Jews Burned Alive
1432 C.E. Savory Expulsion
1438 C.E. Mainz Expulsion
1439 C.E. Augsburg Expulsion
1449 C.E. Toledo Public Torture &. Burnings
1456 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion
1453 C.E. Franconia Expulsion
1453 C.E. Breslau Expulsion
1454 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion
1463 C.E. Cracow Mob Attack
1473 C.E. Andalusia Mob Attack
1480 C.E. Venice Jews Burned Alive
1481 C.E. Seville Stake Burnings
1484 C.E. Cuidad Real, Guadalupe, Saragossa & Teruel Jews Burned Alive
1485 C.E. Vincenza (Italy) Expulsion
1486 C.E. Toledo Jews Burned Alive
1488 C.E. Toledo Stake Burnings
1490 C.E. Toledo Public Executions
1491 C.E. Astorga Public Torture & Execution
1492 C.E. Spain Expulsion
1495 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion
1497 C.E. Portugal Expulsion
1499 C.E. Germany Expulsion
1506 C.E. Lisbon Mob Attack
1510 C.E. Berlin Public Torture & Execution
1514 C.E. Strasbourg Expulsion
1519 C.E. Regensburg Expulsion
1539 C.E. Cracow & Portugal Stake Burnings
1540 C.E. Naples Expulsion
1542 C.E. Bohemia Expulsion
1550 C.E. Genoa Expulsion
1551 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion
1555 C.E. Pesaro Expulsion
1556 C.E. Sokhachev (Poland) Public Torture & Execution
1559 C.E. Austria Expulsion
1561 C.E. Prague Expulsion
1567 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion
1569 C.E. Papal States Expulsion
1571 C.E. Brandenburg Expulsion
1582 C.E. Netherlands Expulsion
1593 C.E. Brunswick Expulsion
1597 C.E. Cremona, Pavia & Lodi Expulsion
1614 C.E. Frankfort Expulsion
1615 C.E. Worms Expulsion
1619 C.E. Kiev Expulsion
1635 C.E. Vilna Mob Attack
1637 C.E. Cracow Public Torture & Execution
1647 C.E. Lisbon Jews Burned Alive
1648 C.E. Poland 1/3 of Jewry Slaughtered
1649 C.E. Ukraine Expulsion
1649 C.E. Hamburg Expulsion
1652 C.E. Lisbon Stake Burnings
1654 C.E. Little Russia Expulsion
1656 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion
1660 C.E. Seville Jews Burned Alive
1663 C.E Cracow Public Torture &. Execution
1664 C.E. Lemberg Mob Attack
1669 C.E. Oran (North Africa) Expulsion
1670 C.E. Vienna Expulsion
1671 C.E. Minsk Mob Attacks
1681 C.E. Vilna Mob Attacks
1682 C.E. Cracow Mob Attacks
1687 C.E. Posen Mob Attacks
1712 C.E. Sandomir Expulsion
1727 C.E. Russia Expulsion
1738 C.E. Wurtemburg Expulsion
1740 C.E. Liule Russia Expulsion
1744 C.E Bohemia Expulsion
1744 C.E. Livonia Expulsion
1745 C.E. Moravia Expulsion
1753 C.E. Kovad (Lithuania) Expulsion
1757 C.E. Kamenetz Talmud Burning
1761 C.E. Bordeaux Expulsion
1768 C.E. Kiev 3,000 Jews Slaughtered
1772 C.E. Russia Expulsion
1775 C.E. Warsaw Expulsion
1789 C.E. Alsace Expulsion
1801 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attack
1804 C.E. Russian Villages Expulsion
1808 C.E. Russian Countryside Expulsion
1815 C.E. Lubeck & Bremen Expulsion
1820 C.E. Bremes Expulsion
1843 C.E. Austria & Prussia Expulsion
1850 C.E. New York City 500 People, Led by Police, Attacked & Wrecked Jewish Synagogue
1862 C.E. Area under General Grant's Jurisdiction in the United States Expulsion
1866 C.E Galatz (Romania) Expulsion
1871 C.E. Odena Mob Attack
1887 C.E. Slovakia Mob Attacks
1897 C.E. Kantakuzenka (Russia) Mob Attacks
1898 C.E. Rennes (France) Mob Attack
1899 C.E. Nicholayev Mob Attack
1900 C.E. Konitz (Prussia) Mob Attack
1902 C.E. Poland Widespread Pogroms
1904 C.E. Manchuria, Kiev & Volhynia Widespread Pogroms
1905 C.E. Zhitomir (Yolhynia) Mob Attacks
1919 C.E Bavaria Expulsion
1915 C.E. Georgia (U.S.A.) Leo Frank Lynched
1919 C.E. Prague Wide Spread Pogroms
1920 C.E. Munich & Breslau Mob Attacks
1922 C.E. Boston, MA Lawrence Lowell, President of Harvard, calls for Quota Restrictions on Jewish Admission
1926 C.E. Uzbekistan Pogrom
1928 C.E. Hungary Widespread Anti-Semitic Riots on University Campuses
1929 C.E. Lemberg (Poland) Mob Attacks
1930 C.E. Berlin Mob Attack
1933 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attacks
1938-45 C.E. Europe Holocaust

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Unfortunately the formatting of the list failed but I think you will get the gist. It looks better at http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles...rsecution/

Happy is the people who's history makes boring reading.

I am not Jewish through choice. I am not able/allowed to recant it.

I need to know there is one country I can always run to in time of greatest need.

I am Atheist.
I am Jewish.
I am Zionist.

Do I really need to say more?

[Angrboda]

That's nice, but nobody owes you a Zion. Unfortunately, through white man guilt and other stupids, Israel was born. It's existence is a clusterfuck that should have never happened. That you try to justify your support of it by an appeal to a history of oppression is loathesome. You do not get to oppress others just because you have, or "your people," have been oppressed. You don't see me going around arguing for special rights because of the internment of Japanese citizens in world war two in this country. Study the plight of Native Americans in this country. Study the history of Africa. You are not the only formerly oppressed people in the world, and your belief that the oppression which your ancestors suffered gives you special rights in the world is despicable and ethically bankrupt. That type of thinking led Muslims to fly planes into buildings on 9/11. Are you pro-Al-Qaeda as well?

I like you, you seem like a nice guy, but if you are Zionist and pro-Israel just because of an accident of your birth, well, fuck you.

[max-greece]

That's nice, but nobody owes you a Zion.

I didn't say anything about being owed - I have one and it has the means to defend itself.

Unfortunately, through white man guilt and other stupids, Israel was born. It's existence is a clusterfuck that should have never happened.

Oh - entirely agree - but it did, it exists now and I cannot be sorry about that - I am not that altruistic.

That you try to justify your support of it by an appeal to a history of oppression is loathesome.

I don't think you got my argument judging by what you have said thus far. I support it because I see a need for it - its personal.

The history of oppression (would that it remain historical) is the reason I see my need, not the justification.

You do not get to oppress others just because you have, or "your people," have been oppressed.

I am not oppressing anyone. Israel does, for sure, and I do not support it in those actions.

You don't see me going around arguing for special rights because of the internment of Japanese citizens in world war two in this country.

No - you could always return to Japan if you felt that strongly about it.

Study the plight of Native Americans in this country. Study the history of Africa. You are not the only formerly oppressed people in the world, and your belief that the oppression which your ancestors suffered gives you special rights in the world is despicable and ethically bankrupt.

Again - no request for special rights have been made. Israel, rightly or wrongly, exists - I wasn't involved in that decision.

I am, however, somewhat mystified by this need to quantify historical suffering in order to undermine, somehow, Jewish suffering. Are you saying Jews would need to have suffered more to have gained Israel? Is there an exchange rate you use for this calculation? If others have suffered historically and maybe still are doing does that mean you think Jews should be too?

That type of thinking led Muslims to fly planes into buildings on 9/11. Are you pro-Al-Qaeda as well?

Erm......no. Religious indoctrination and brain-washing led Muslims to fly into buildings on 9/11.

I like you, you seem like a nice guy, but if you are Zionist and pro-Israel just because of an accident of your birth, well, fuck you.

Thank you and fuck you too.

[Angrboda]

Ah yes, the Nuremberg defense. Fitting that a Jew would appeal to it to justify his ethically bankrupt worldview.

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

Nuremberg Principles, Principle IV

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That type of thinking led Muslims to fly planes into buildings on 9/11. Are you pro-Al-Qaeda as well?

Erm......no. Religious indoctrination and brain-washing led Muslims to fly into buildings on 9/11.

If you're really this ignorant, I pity you. But I rather suspect your ignorance of the causes of 9/11 reflects a more crass motive, namely enlightened self-interest.

[max-greece]

You got a Nuremberg defence from what I said? Wow.

Take a chill pill - you need one.

[feeling]

Thank you and fuck you too.

rofl

Anyway I like Israel and I hope it bombs the shit out of it's neighbours.

[KichigaiNeko]

Personally?

I think it is about time "the Jews" got over themselves and moved on.

Everything about their "traditions" is quaint and not necessarily pertinent to this day and age. Don't care and will NOT give you special privilege.

Get over it, and deal with the real world.

[TaraJo]

I don't hate Jews, I hate fundamentalists. I hate fundamentalists of any ilk. Specifically, if you're so into something that you can't critique it or question it or look at it from a different perspective, I probably won't get along with you talking about it one-sidedly.

And I've certainly gotten into it with others who are incredibly one-sided on other issues. I've had words with extremely one-sided feminists, even though I support gender equality and I'm pro-choice.

I've argued with one-sided anarchists and other political fundamentalists.

And, yes, when you type, lately, it's always about the Jews. Hell, I look through the last few threads you started and most of them are about the Jews and Isreal (including the mind-numbingly stupid post suggesting war reparations from Germany). Not to mention, your hate of Arabs and Islam is comperable only to the hate you see coming from Isreals political leaders. In fact, I can't believe I found someone who actually seemed to cross the line from "legitimate criticism of Islam" into "genuine islamophobia" but you seem to have done it. Good job!

[max-greece]

I don't hate Jews, I hate fundamentalists. I hate fundamentalists of any ilk. Specifically, if you're so into something that you can't critique it or question it or look at it from a different perspective, I probably won't get along with you talking about it one-sidedly.

And I've certainly gotten into it with others who are incredibly one-sided on other issues. I've had words with extremely one-sided feminists, even though I support gender equality and I'm pro-choice.

I've argued with one-sided anarchists and other political fundamentalists.

And, yes, when you type, lately, it's always about the Jews. Hell, I look through the last few threads you started and most of them are about the Jews and Isreal (including the mind-numbingly stupid post suggesting war reparations from Germany). Not to mention, your hate of Arabs and Islam is comperable only to the hate you see coming from Isreals political leaders. In fact, I can't believe I found someone who actually seemed to cross the line from "legitimate criticism of Islam" into "genuine islamophobia" but you seem to have done it. Good job!

OH dear - I am not Marx, I am Max and this is the only thread I have ever started on the subject.

Is it the Xmas drinking starting early with you lot?

I mean - WTF?

[TaraJo]

OH dear - I am not Marx, I am Max and this is the only thread I have ever started on the subject.

Is it the Xmas drinking starting early with you lot?

I mean - WTF?

Sorry I made that mistake. It's early; my brain isn't at 100% yet.

Anyway, the whole Jews/Zionism thing is pretty darn complex. Yes, the persecution they faced when they didn't have their own country is part of the issue. I don't doubt for a second that the persecution in Europe would have continued if they hadn't gotten together and formed Isreal. Now they've just traded one form of conflict with another since they've been in kinda perpetual war with the rest of the middle east. I kinda wonder, what ways would there be for there to really be peace in that region? Or is it even possible? Has Islam gotten such fanatical followers that are so eager to die for Islam that they're actively looking for an opportuniy to martyr themselves and Isreal is just an easy target?