(December 19, 2013 at 12:39 am)theyear12013 Wrote: The genetic links are specious and in the end an irrelevant red herring. Do we grant Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Catholic Americans the right to go back to Italy and create a state? Why not Christian Arabs the right to create a Christian state in Israel's spot since they are in such a weak position.

No nation state makes its legitimacy via such flimsy grounds.

Israel has legitimacy because it won wars, not because of Jewish human beings claimed link to the land 2000 years ago. That it continues to justify its existence via the religion Judaism should make it an object of ridicule for all Atheists. The country will stick around regardless of this debate, but it should be 100% secular and devoid of the pronouncements of a 6000 year old cult. Secular Arabs should be able to immigrate there, make business, become billionaires and win an election.

You are correct in labeling Judaism a cult. It was always had a very small following as there is no evidence of any large cohesive Jewish settlement or kingdom in the biblical age. There is no evidence of any large ethnically cohesive Jewish population back in those days. Judaism arose as a cult out of Zoroastrianism and dispersed and emersed itself with rising Islamic movements and Christian movements. The people calling themselves Jews today are of european descent and followers of a Jewish like cult known as Zionism. Zionism is the Alqaeda of Judaism.

(December 18, 2013 at 11:21 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote: I am against hateful racist Arabs having nukes, yes. That would threaten the barely balanced semi-peace of the region.

Speaking of hateful racist behaviour, you ignored the video I'd like your opinion on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff...ata_player

Nora,

A truly horrific video. That there are ultra right wing fascists in Israel sickens me to my stomach and the plight of the refugees is genuinely horrific.

I do have to point out a something that you might have missed in the video:

Right at the beginning when it stated that Europe closed its doors completely to the immigrants and that that was the reason they went to Israel. It appears Israel was caught on the hop, having not closed their doors at the same time.

No country appears to have a system that allows for immigration of refugees. Its a global issue. Indigenous populations always react badly to immigration, particularly in Europe. Look at the British panic whenever anyone mentions Eastern European immigration. Look at the reactions in the British press (the Mail, Express and so on) to immigrants.

I am not justifying the video. Merely pointing out that had it happened in Britain, for example, a similar video could have been made with ultra-nationalists there and I am using Britain as an example precisely because it is one of the most multi-national cultures on earth.

It would also have been similar in Greece.

(December 19, 2013 at 4:46 am)max-greece Wrote: Nora,

A truly horrific video. That there are ultra right wing fascists in Israel sickens me to my stomach and the plight of the refugees is genuinely horrific.

I do have to point out a something that you might have missed in the video:

Right at the beginning when it stated that Europe closed its doors completely to the immigrants and that that was the reason they went to Israel. It appears Israel was caught on the hop, having not closed their doors at the same time.

No country appears to have a system that allows for immigration of refugees. Its a global issue. Indigenous populations always react badly to immigration, particularly in Europe. Look at the British panic whenever anyone mentions Eastern European immigration. Look at the reactions in the British press (the Mail, Express and so on) to immigrants.

I am not justifying the video. Merely pointing out that had it happened in Britain, for example, a similar video could have been made with ultra-nationalists there and I am using Britain as an example precisely because it is one of the most multi-national cultures on earth.

It would also have been similar in Greece.

Thanks. I agree with everything you have said here.

My point is just that Israel isn't some perfect pleace full of perfect people. It's as fucked up as anywhere else. That's something matey here doesn't seem to underfuckingstand. lol

Also, you just reminded me to check the news for more stories trying to make me terrified of Romanians and Bulgarians. UKIP sent out flyers saying 29 million of them are coming over here next month. Impressive, considering that's more than the combined populations of Romania and Bulgaria...

Quote:It's as fucked up as anywhere else.

Absolutely, 100%, agree.

Not more, not less, equally fucked up.

Isn't this nice - it seems to have been a while since I found anyone that I was in agreement with - I had quite forgotten what it felt like.

(December 19, 2013 at 4:55 am)max-greece Wrote:

Quote:It's as fucked up as anywhere else.

Absolutely, 100%, agree.

Not more, not less, equally fucked up.

Isn't this nice - it seems to have been a while since I found anyone that I was in agreement with - I had quite forgotten what it felt like.

It's wonderful, isn't it? *Hugs*

(December 19, 2013 at 4:53 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote:

(December 19, 2013 at 4:46 am)max-greece Wrote: Nora,

A truly horrific video. That there are ultra right wing fascists in Israel sickens me to my stomach and the plight of the refugees is genuinely horrific.

I do have to point out a something that you might have missed in the video:

Right at the beginning when it stated that Europe closed its doors completely to the immigrants and that that was the reason they went to Israel. It appears Israel was caught on the hop, having not closed their doors at the same time.

No country appears to have a system that allows for immigration of refugees. Its a global issue. Indigenous populations always react badly to immigration, particularly in Europe. Look at the British panic whenever anyone mentions Eastern European immigration. Look at the reactions in the British press (the Mail, Express and so on) to immigrants.

I am not justifying the video. Merely pointing out that had it happened in Britain, for example, a similar video could have been made with ultra-nationalists there and I am using Britain as an example precisely because it is one of the most multi-national cultures on earth.

It would also have been similar in Greece.

Thanks. I agree with everything you have said here.

My point is just that Israel isn't some perfect pleace full of perfect people. It's as fucked up as anywhere else. That's something matey here doesn't seem to underfuckingstand. lol

Also, you just reminded me to check the news for more stories trying to make me terrified of Romanians and Bulgarians. UKIP sent out flyers saying 29 million of them are coming over here next month. Impressive, considering that's more than the combined populations of Romania and Bulgaria...

No one is claiming Israel is some perfect place entirely full of peaceful people. There are frightening theocratic-fascist parties in Israel (one of the largest being הבית היהודי). Israel, however, is for the most part peaceful & secular. Things in Israel started to go downhill after the left/labour Zionists lost their near-monopoly on power, but Israel is still a great nation worth defending.

There is no doubt that Iran wants to build a nuclear bomb.
Iran spent $ 140 billion for uranium enrichment and plutonium.
Nuclear power generation is an economic activity.
Economic activity should be reasonably profitable.
Do you have a fireplace in the apartment area of ​​50 square meters, will cost $ 500,000?
It turns out that the cost to build the atomic bomb.
Israeli hostage by Iranian mullahs. Because they want America to deal with over the Islamic regime.

(December 19, 2013 at 4:14 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote:

(December 18, 2013 at 11:21 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote: I am against hateful racist Arabs having nukes, yes. That would threaten the barely balanced semi-peace of the region.

Speaking of hateful racist behaviour, you ignored the video I'd like your opinion on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff...ata_player

I'm absolutely appalled with that video, & I'm even more appalled to see those protestors waving Israeli flag at their racist demonstrations. Israel is a state founded on the immigration of desperate people who work hard to build their country. It is against the spirit of Zionism to be racist & hostile to these people. I'l also point out that Ben-Ari is a follower of Meir Kahane, who's party was rightfully banned. Such people are the ones who should be expelled from Israel.

It is of course important to protect the Jewish character of Israel. But it is also important to stick to the spirit of Zionism. It is the Israeli right that is doing this. I don't support the current Prime-Minister of Israel. I support peace & prosperity. This would never have happened if the revisionist Zionists hadn't come to power.

What needs to be done is more money needs to be sent to Israel so that they can assist immigrants in finding refuge (ideally outside of Israel). Those few that cannot find refuge must of course be allowed to stay in Israel.

Many Ethiopians are Jewish, & they have been welcomed into Israel & some even serve in the Knesset.

One point the video brought up is about the Palestinian refugees. Israel cannot take them back, that would threaten Israel's Jewish character.

Quote:Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.

-Golda Meir

Sorry about this appearing as a hyperlink. I couldn't figure out to to fix that.

(December 19, 2013 at 5:42 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote:

(December 19, 2013 at 4:14 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Speaking of hateful racist behaviour, you ignored the video I'd like your opinion on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff...ata_player

I'm absolutely appalled with that video, & I'm even more appalled to see those protestors waving Israeli flag at their racist demonstrations. Israel is a state founded on the immigration of desperate people who work hard to build their country. It is against the spirit of Zionism to be racist & hostile to these people. I'l also point out that Ben-Ari is a follower of Meir Kahane, who's party was rightfully banned. Such people are the ones who should be expelled from Israel.

It is of course important to protect the Jewish character of Israel. But it is also important to stick to the spirit of Zionism. It is the Israeli right that is doing this. I don't support the current Prime-Minister of Israel. I support peace & prosperity. This would never have happened if the revisionist Zionists hadn't come to power.

What needs to be done is more money needs to be sent to Israel so that they can assist immigrants in finding refuge (ideally outside of Israel). Those few that cannot find refuge must of course be allowed to stay in Israel.

Many Ethiopians are Jewish, & they have been welcomed into Israel & some even serve in the Knesset.

One point the video brought up is about the Palestinian refugees. Israel cannot take them back, that would threaten Israel's Jewish character.

Quote:Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.

-Golda Meir

Sorry about this appearing as a hyperlink. I couldn't figure out to to fix that.

What do you mean Israeli Jewish "character"

How many Palestinians lived in that are and how many Europeans lived in the area when Israel was established as a state?

Do you believe lands conquered during warfare should be annexed by the conquering force?

---

(December 19, 2013 at 11:12 am)A-g-n-o-s-t-i-c Wrote: There is no doubt that Iran wants to build a nuclear bomb.
Iran spent $ 140 billion for uranium enrichment and plutonium.
Nuclear power generation is an economic activity.
Economic activity should be reasonably profitable.
Do you have a fireplace in the apartment area of ​​50 square meters, will cost $ 500,000?
It turns out that the cost to build the atomic bomb.
Israeli hostage by Iranian mullahs. Because they want America to deal with over the Islamic regime.

Where is this evidence that Iran is building a nuclear weapon?

You do know that facilities used for nuclear energy are regularly inspected as Iran is a signatory of the non proliferation treaty. The inspections are carried out by the INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC AGENCY.

nuclear energy in Iran is a real economic threat...to the west. IF IRAN CAN DECREASE SIGNIFICANTLY ITS DEPENDENCE ON OIL THEN THE OIL THEY DO HAVE CAN BE USED AS MAJOR LEVERAGE ECONOMICLY.

How many nuclear weapons do you think Israel has?