(December 23, 2013 at 2:30 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: You're probably right. But what about a consciousness unlike human brains?

They're still analogue, organic minds. See the first point in my link previously.

Quote:and what if that task is to program itself? What if that task is to emulate human emotion? What if the task we program them for ends up having additional effects? Such as recognizing that it is a separate entity from that which it is communicating with? Through its exposure with other separate entities, would it gain experiences that it would store, and then be able to readily access them when they would be useful without being prompted to do so?

Go ahead and program it then. It's not as simple as you think, hence why it hasn't been done yet.

Quote:Yes, but complexity doesn't gurantee efficiency, nor does it gurantee a creator. However, sometimes complex things are created, and of those things, many of them are brilliantly efficient! And while for the time being, it certainly appears as though our intellect has not been matched by any synthesized version, the possibility for a future fabricated rival cannot be ruled out.

What does consciousness have to do with efficiency or having a creator?

Quote:I'm just saying that the line is getting harder and harder to distinguish, and it's possible that one day we may need an X-ray scanner to see it. And if that day comes, where does our moral intuition take us?

No, it's not too difficult to distinguish at the moment. Maybe to those who don't know much about computing they can be fooled into thinking machines have consciousness, take Asimo for example, but to anyone who does understand even the most basic programming code and how computers work, it's pretty obvious that the level of complexity required to simulate a human brain is pretty fucking incomprehensible right now.

Again, that doesn't mean to say we won't or can't design a machine to think like we do, but we haven't, and we can't right now.

(December 23, 2013 at 2:20 pm)Napoléon Wrote: This isn't even mentioning the hardware and software limitations that come with being a machine.

Aren't we limited by our genetic coding? And haven't we begun to figure out ways to improve upon those limitations?

Could a synthesized intelligence that occupies a robotic vessel learn to do that very thing? Couldn't process of elimination be utilized by a AI, with regards to filtering possibilities of improvements, be effective in the way that natural selection produced us? If the computer discards the ones that are not advantageous while mainting the ones that produce benefits, wouldn't that be a start?

(December 23, 2013 at 2:38 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: Aren't we limited by our genetic coding? And haven't we begun to figure out ways to improve upon those limitations?

Again, what does this have to do with consciousness in machines. Our limitations are wildly different to computers. Your comparisons don't take into account these differences.

Quote:Could a synthesized intelligence that occupies a robotic vessel learn to do that very thing? Couldn't process of elimination be utilized by a AI, with regards to filtering possibilities of improvements, be effective in the way that natural selection produced us? If the computer discards the ones that are not advantageous while mainting the ones that produce benefits, wouldn't that be a start?

Whether it's possible or not is irrelevant to the OP!

(December 23, 2013 at 2:37 pm)Napoléon Wrote: They're still analogue, organic minds. See the first point in my link previously.

Agreed, and I did see it. Again, I'm not saying that we can replicate our exact experience, only that it's plausible to create a form of it that, on most fronts, has the properties of what we would characterize as consciousness.

(December 23, 2013 at 2:37 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Go ahead and program it then. It's not as simple as you think, hence why it hasn't been done yet.

I am certainly not the one. And I assure you that I do not view it as simple by any means. However, there are lots of complicated things that I, myself, cannot even begin to do myself, and yet more qualified individuals produce these marvels on a daily basis. However, my not being able to do something, or-it not being done yet, are not good enough reasons for me to exclude it as a possibility. I do recognize that my own ignorance to the subject could very easily play a huge role in my optimism.

(December 23, 2013 at 2:37 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Again, that doesn't mean to say we won't or can't design a machine to think like we do, but we haven't, and we can't right now.

I agree entirely. I was using my personal computer to make comparisons with regards to our shared characteristics, but I wasn't suggesting that it actually, currently possesses the same properties or abilities. I had a feeling I was gonna get misunderstood.

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(December 23, 2013 at 2:46 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Whether it's possible or not is irrelevant to the OP!

I guess I should have titled it "COULD computers have..." and not "DO computers..." My apologies for the confusion.

(December 23, 2013 at 2:51 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I agree entirely. I was using my personal computer to make comparisons with regards to our shared characteristics, but I wasn't suggesting that it actually, currently possesses the same properties or abilities. I had a feeling I was gonna get misunderstood.

Well it's kinda hard not to 'misunderstand' when you say things like this:

(December 23, 2013 at 1:15 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: My computer does the same thing with the information I put in to it. It is able to pickup on useful information, and from there, it produces what it (dare I say, thinks...) will be relevant to my inquiry.

If that's not suggesting that a computer has the same kind of ability for thought as a human mind then I don't know what is.


Either way, think I've said more than my piece on this one. It's interesting shit to be sure, I just don't think people should jump the gun, computers IMO aren't capable of the same kind of thought we are. At least not currently.

(December 23, 2013 at 1:24 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: In the event that my iPhone is self aware, sorry for all the porn!

I'm sure it finds TigerDirect and Wirefly compelling

(December 23, 2013 at 3:00 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(December 23, 2013 at 2:51 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I agree entirely. I was using my personal computer to make comparisons with regards to our shared characteristics, but I wasn't suggesting that it actually, currently possesses the same properties or abilities. I had a feeling I was gonna get misunderstood.

Well it's kinda hard not to 'misunderstand' when you say things like this:

(December 23, 2013 at 1:15 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: My computer does the same thing with the information I put in to it. It is able to pickup on useful information, and from there, it produces what it (dare I say, thinks...) will be relevant to my inquiry.

If that's not suggesting that a computer has the same kind of ability for thought as a human mind then I don't know what is.


Either way, think I've said more than my piece on this one. It's interesting shit to be sure, I just don't think people should jump the gun, computers IMO aren't capable of the same kind of thought we are. At least not currently.

Yup!...totally signed up for that. I assure you that wasn't what I was trying to imply, but you were perfectly justified to infer it. I was just trying to get the ball rolling by pointing out similarities that could be construed as equals in hopes of hearing speculations about what it would take to achieve actual similarities.

Instead, I ran it into the ground because my PC does not currently possess consciousness.


I take full responsibility for that one.

(December 23, 2013 at 1:24 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: In the event that my iPhone is self aware, sorry for all the porn!

If your iphone is self aware, that would be the only excuse for all the porn.

How would you know if a computer is conscious?

It would pretty much boil down to asking a Turing-capable computer if it was conscious and have it answer in the affirmative. It would be assumed the way I assume other humans are as conscious as I am.

Ta-da!!!!