(January 2, 2014 at 1:49 pm)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: There is also the internal method for deciding that atheism is a philosophy - the fact that its principles aren't established through math, or anything else, but in and through philosophy.

Hey, real quick: aside from the lack of a belief in god, name one other principle of atheism.

Name it, and watch at least one person here tell you that they don't share it.

(boru)

Quote:From such pronouncements are pogroms made

That's it! Atheists are the new Jews! ... Wait what? Do you mean to say that atheists are sensitive human beings just like religious people are, and subject to dehumanisation and so on? Well then does it work the other way too? Is it dehumanising to denegrate someone's worldview? You tell me.

(pocaracas)

Quote: the lack of faith in an almighty and just god can lead to a depression laden society

I'm not sure that's exactly my point, it's more that atheists throwing their weight about (being brutish with their judgements) leads to a depression laden society, or somesuch. In any case what I really wanted to get across is that atheism in its most often expressed form (I called it 'so what' atheism) is a socially meaningful ethos that isn't as helpful as it should be. Or even harmful.

(french guy)

Quote:Atheist is just a description of someone who does not believe in god. That's it. It is not an ethical system or praxis. Atheism has no principals other than not beleiving in God.

and
(Esquilax]

Quote:Hey, real quick: aside from the lack of a belief in god, name one other principle of atheism.
Name it, and watch at least one person here tell you that they don't share it.

Well then consider the guantlet thrown down and accepted! I have a small list but am prepared to argue for the following single principle as most central to atheism:

- The belief in God or Gods is a legitimate subject for the method of doubt

The method of doubt of course includes all sorts of rational principles that need to be made explicit before they are accepted, but the principle above is I think known intuitively wherever there is rejection of God, even if not philosophically stated or developed in any sense. Of course I imply that the method of doubt (i.e. systematic, universal criticism) is required to make 'atheism' meaningful. You may now disagree?

A note: I can imagine somebody somewhere never hearing about God in their lives, but the most accurate thing you could say about such a life is that it is undecided in terms of God. Religion originates in ordinary experience, after all.

(January 3, 2014 at 7:23 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: (pocaracas)

Quote: the lack of faith in an almighty and just god can lead to a depression laden society

I'm not sure that's exactly my point, it's more that atheists throwing their weight about (being brutish with their judgements) leads to a depression laden society, or somesuch. In any case what I really wanted to get across is that atheism in its most often expressed form (I called it 'so what' atheism) is a socially meaningful ethos that isn't as helpful as it should be. Or even harmful.

no... atheism is only harmful because there are many theists who will persecute and harm atheists...





Atheists simply point out that, lacking belief, god is just a concept.
This is not meant to be helpful to anyone... unless you're about to blow yourself for some belief.... or you want to keep knowledge or research away from the people by imposing some policies.... or something stupid like that...

(January 3, 2014 at 7:23 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: That's it! Atheists are the new Jews! ... Wait what? Do you mean to say that atheists are sensitive human beings just like religious people are, and subject to dehumanisation and so on? Well then does it work the other way too? Is it dehumanising to denegrate someone's worldview? You tell me.

No it isn't. Bad ideas exist to be destroyed, good ideas can withstand criticism. However, you've chosen to focus on denegrating people.

Quote: no... atheism is only harmful because there are many theists who will persecute and harm atheists...

The guy in the video was really distressed wasn't he? I mean, to the point of smugness.

While there are legitimate problems with atheists being persecuted, this isn't an example of it - quite the opposite, and actually serves to prove my point. When atheists are 'out and proud' they actually piss people off quite a lot, and enjoy the idea of being persecuted ('what, for being rational? chucklechuckle gaffaw').

Again. Atheism is often harmful because the worldviews most atheists mess with (in 'defending' or 'explaining' their 'position') - in their size 10 shoes - are sometimes delicate and sometimes necessary. To think 'well if you're not smart enough/educated enough' is just reckless.

Quote:Atheists simply point out that, lacking belief, god is just a concept.
This is not meant to be helpful to anyone... unless you're about to blow yourself for some belief.... or you want to keep knowledge or research away from the people by imposing some policies.... or something stupid like that...

God is not just a concept. It is just a concept to you, but not to others. This is extremely important, and until you accept it you are in denial.

Realising the difference does not have to mean social policies holding back smart people (from expressing how smart they are), it simply means that smart people have to be smarter - legitimately smarter, intellectually, not as a political cop out.

So there.

---

(January 3, 2014 at 10:29 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(January 3, 2014 at 7:23 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: That's it! Atheists are the new Jews! ... Wait what? Do you mean to say that atheists are sensitive human beings just like religious people are, and subject to dehumanisation and so on? Well then does it work the other way too? Is it dehumanising to denegrate someone's worldview? You tell me.

No it isn't. Bad ideas exist to be destroyed, good ideas can withstand criticism. However, you've chosen to focus on denegrating people.

I have chosen, for the record, to defend people who cannot defend themselves.

"Bad ideas exist to be destroyed"? Really? In attacking religion you can destroy people, not ideas, that's the point big guy.

Edit: I don't want to seriously reply to a troll who doesn't actually care about anyone else's views except his own. Commence derail!

(January 3, 2014 at 11:09 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Edit: I don't want to seriously reply to a troll who doesn't actually care about anyone else's views except his own. Commence derail!

I'm selfish because I don't already agree with you? Fascist!

(January 3, 2014 at 10:50 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote:

Quote: no... atheism is only harmful because there are many theists who will persecute and harm atheists...

The guy in the video was really distressed wasn't he? I mean, to the point of smugness.

While there are legitimate problems with atheists being persecuted, this isn't an example of it - quite the opposite, and actually serves to prove my point. When atheists are 'out and proud' they actually piss people off quite a lot, and enjoy the idea of being persecuted ('what, for being rational? chucklechuckle gaffaw').

So, should theists be out and proud and scream from the top of their lungs all the mythology they come up with, but atheists can't poke wholes in the fallacies of these people?
Is that it?
Free speech, to hell, if it's against an established ideology?
Can't go disturbing people's delusions... they're happy with them... keep them that way!

(January 3, 2014 at 10:50 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: Again. Atheism is often harmful because the worldviews most atheists mess with (in 'defending' or 'explaining' their 'position') - in their size 10 shoes - are sometimes delicate and sometimes necessary. To think 'well if you're not smart enough/educated enough' is just reckless.

You are aware that very educated and smart people remain theists, are you not?
It so happens that it's the uneducated that become more vocal... which is sad...

(January 3, 2014 at 10:50 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote:

Quote:Atheists simply point out that, lacking belief, god is just a concept.
This is not meant to be helpful to anyone... unless you're about to blow yourself for some belief.... or you want to keep knowledge or research away from the people by imposing some policies.... or something stupid like that...

God is not just a concept. It is just a concept to you, but not to others. This is extremely important, and until you accept it you are in denial.

Reality does not care about what people think.

(January 3, 2014 at 10:50 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: Realising the difference does not have to mean social policies holding back smart people (from expressing how smart they are), it simply means that smart people have to be smarter - legitimately smarter, intellectually, not as a political cop out.

So there.

Smarter as in... playing along with the theists and never saying anything that may offend them and their view of the afterlife? Is that it?
Atheists have to be silent, alone and cower in fear of what may ensue if they open their mouths? Is that it?!

F***, no!

The world has been under the influence of these con-men for far too long. The time for change is now. Atheists will not shut up.
We're not being smug (though I admit some may come of like that), we're simply explaining our own realizations about the world, life, the universe and everything. Science is helping by reducing all gods to their insignificant gaps, while helping us understand the reality of what's around us.

The Universe is a beautiful place and reducing it to the fancy of some make belief entity is just delusional.
Sure, some people will fight to keep their delusion. Some people will shrug their shoulders and not bother. Some people will see the delusion for what it is. Some people will never get to know the delusion.

Atheists are simply saying things as they seem to be, with no desire to harm anyone in the process, just provide information to think. The delusional ones who wish to fight this are the dangerous ones, not the atheists.

When we were australopithecus, there was no belief in gods... then some schmuck came along and messed up the whole thing... now it's time to get back on track.
It'll take generations upon generations, but it'll get there.

It seems to be a fact that high standards of living are correlated with atheism

(January 3, 2014 at 11:34 am)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: I'm selfish because I don't already agree with you? Fascist!

Liberal egalitarian, actually. But don't worry if you don't understand what that is what with all your philosophy qualifications and what not.

But thanks for playing, trolly troll you're selfish because you're disingenuous, and to be fair, not that smart (intellectually and, seemingly, politically). I mean, you joined an atheist forum with the aim of telling atheists that they're wrong/terrible people etc etc. sound like something a smart person would do, or a person who wanted their views to be considered and debated? Schmuck.

DERAIL