(January 10, 2014 at 12:53 pm)Drich Wrote: Actually that is not sorcery, that is fiction.

Are you claiming that all instances of sorcery outside the bibble are fiction?
If so, then we're pretty safe as your reference book doesn't supply any procedures specific enough to repeat them and we're not likely to wish to accomplish the same results anyway.
If not, then what actual sorcery do you claim exists and how do I get some. In my commercial industry, I'd expect to see more of this magic because of the competitive advantage it would supply. Is this what the Illuminati are doing and we just can't tell?

(January 10, 2014 at 1:00 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 12:53 pm)Drich Wrote: absolutly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_use_of_incense

We use to do this in our house, for these reasons.

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Sorry must have missed this one somehow.


Indeed as per the example of Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8 because God is partially responsiable redemption through attonement is offered, if said sorcerer repents.

Great example, but what is the alternitive to a child possiably getting burned? Kill the child? not have children? stop cooking? or tell them not to play around the stove? maybe allow them to even get burned to save them from serious burns later on?

Or shut the burner off.

so... stop cooking and do not use the stove ever?

(January 10, 2014 at 2:03 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 1:00 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Or shut the burner off.

so... stop cooking and do not use the stove ever?

No, you shut the off when you are done cooking and supervise the child at all times. Unlike what god did which is simple leave the burner on and walk away after giving the child the rules.

(January 10, 2014 at 12:59 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote: The point I was making and you all seem all too eager to verify is that by accepting fictional accounts of things like witchcraft and sorcery, you have turn a blind eye to how it truly manifest itself.

Sorcery is not about harry potter magic, it is about using things like herbs and chants to get a desired result, from something as small as getting rid of a head ache or giving someone a head ache to killing them or healing them. Sorcery is about seeking means of changing one's situation outside of God. It is seeking to by pass God in hopes to control or manage one's own life, through other 'powers.'

Except drich that any practicing ritual magician that is following the practice of henry Agrippa ( basically any that is not levayan or wiccan) will tell that there power comes from god and his officers, the highest ritual being the tetra gromesh which is a ritual to summon god to take orders from god directly.
And their position is just as well evidenced as yours.

Actually it's not. Henry position is extra biblical/not found in the bible. Mine is. If the bible means nothing and one is not in service of the God of the bible then I can see how you would assume that one position is no more valid than another. However if Henry was in service to the God of the bible as he claims, then his works countermanded what scripture tells us Service to God includes. This invalidates Henry's efforts as being of or for The God of the bible.

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(January 10, 2014 at 1:02 pm)StoryBook Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote: The point I was making and you all seem all too eager to verify is that by accepting fictional accounts of things like witchcraft and sorcery, you have turn a blind eye to how it truly manifest itself.

Sorcery is not about harry potter magic, it is about using things like herbs and chants to get a desired result, from something as small as getting rid of a head ache or giving someone a head ache to killing them or healing them. Sorcery is about seeking means of changing one's situation outside of God. It is seeking to by pass God in hopes to control or manage one's own life, through other 'powers.'

??? So you have never used pain or cold medications? Never went to a doctor? Shouldn't use tooth paste because it is altering the health of your teeth.

This is a Strawman arguement, your rebuttal does not repersent my position.

I said that Chants, and 'drugs' and the like were used as a means to bypass God, and appeal to spirits/demons.. Using drugs is not an automatic appeal to demons/spirits for help.

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(January 10, 2014 at 1:00 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: For what reasons?

For the reason stated, we started out as buddhists. we used Insence to clear 'evil spirits' with good ones.

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(January 10, 2014 at 1:07 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 12:53 pm)Drich Wrote: absolutly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_use_of_incense

We use to do this in our house, for these reasons.

Are you saying burning incense is sorcery and you do that?

Incense in of itself is meaningless, it is the reason incense is used that can make it sorcery.

My mother's parents use to burn incense yes. As the grew up and lived as practicing buddhists.

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(January 10, 2014 at 1:08 pm)StoryBook Wrote: Isn't this what Christian/Catholics do?

Yes

Quote:Isn't this what god does?

there is not one command nor Nt example for the Christian. no.

Is all sorcery bad then? Because I don't see someone healing someone else with magic, as a bad thing.

(January 10, 2014 at 1:25 pm)JuliaL Wrote: Are you claiming that all instances of sorcery outside the bibble are fiction?

where did i say that, or rather what did I say to make you assume that? I said every example being presented was fiction, that the bible gave/gives examples, and the examples given are not of the cartoon vareity being referenced by you all.

Again sorcery is an attempt to petition Spirits,demons or satan himself through ritual and or potions/chemical means to acheave a desired effect. in an attempt to bypass the provaunaunce of God/God's will.

It is the intention to bypass God and petition another source of power through whatever means that what makes sorcery, sorcery. not the acts themselves.

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(January 10, 2014 at 2:17 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Is all sorcery bad then? Because I don't see someone healing someone else with magic, as a bad thing.

yes.

Take away the term 'magic' and replace it with demons, or a deal from the devil. If you had cancer and the devil offered you a full life in exchange for something to be determined at a later date would you take the deal or die?

Sorcery is petitioning essentially the devil for a favor now for something else later.. lest you think he is satasified with chicken feet and incense.

(January 10, 2014 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote: Sorcery is not about harry potter magic, it is about using things like herbs and chants to get a desired result, from something as small as getting rid of a head ache or giving someone a head ache to killing them or healing them. Sorcery is about seeking means of changing one's situation outside of God. It is seeking to by pass God in hopes to control or manage one's own life, through other 'powers.'

So someone chewing Willow bark to get relief from a headache is sorcery?

(January 10, 2014 at 2:06 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 2:03 pm)Drich Wrote: so... stop cooking and do not use the stove ever?

No, you shut the off when you are done cooking and supervise the child at all times. Unlike what god did which is simple leave the burner on and walk away after giving the child the rules.

The word 'ever' would denote a life time in this instance. If a child grows up being taught about the dangers of playing near a hot stove, and continues to do so in his 60s or 70s then the 'child' needs to be responsiable for his deeds!

Rules or rather in this instance your 'list of rules' is the teaching tool. we have been given a life time to determine whether or not we want to follow said rules, if yes we are taken to a place where the stoves are safe to touch always. if not then we get burned literally. However in this life we are exposed to things like hot stoves so we are in a position to determine for ourselves whether we want to live an eternity with them or without them.

(January 10, 2014 at 2:23 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 1:25 pm)JuliaL Wrote: Are you claiming that all instances of sorcery outside the bibble are fiction?

where did i say that, or rather what did I say to make you assume that? I said every example being presented was fiction, that the bible gave/gives examples, and the examples given are not of the cartoon vareity being referenced by you all.

Again sorcery is an attempt to petition Spirits,demons or satan himself through ritual and or potions/chemical means to acheave a desired effect. in an attempt to bypass the provaunaunce of God/God's will.

It is the intention to bypass God and petition another source of power through whatever means that what makes sorcery, sorcery. not the acts themselves.

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Sorcery is petitioning essentially the devil for a favor now for something else later.. lest you think he is satasified with chicken feet and incense.

I'm just trying to pin you down on what this 'sorcery' thing is that is being proscribed.
Is it currently extant? Is it natural or supernatural or both.
If it has extension into our reality, where is it?
I think JREF is willing to give you a $million if you can show it does.
If you won't collect the money, will you tell me how so I can? I'm willing to take the risk of condemning my immortal soul for a cool mil.

(January 10, 2014 at 2:08 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote: Sorcery is not about harry potter magic, it is about using things like herbs and chants to get a desired result, from something as small as getting rid of a head ache or giving someone a head ache to killing them or healing them. Sorcery is about seeking means of changing one's situation outside of God. It is seeking to by pass God in hopes to control or manage one's own life, through other 'powers.'

(January 10, 2014 at 1:02 pm)StoryBook Wrote: ??? So you have never used pain or cold medications? Never went to a doctor? Shouldn't use tooth paste because it is altering the health of your teeth.

This is a Strawman arguement, your rebuttal does not repersent my position.

I said that Chants, and 'drugs' and the like were used as a means to bypass God, and appeal to spirits/demons.. Using drugs is not an automatic appeal to demons/spirits for help.

Make up your bloody mind and stop contradicting yourself.
Pain medications are drugs, some come from herbs if you want to be specific.
YOU said using such things is to get rid of something such as " the pain of a headache" is sorcery.