(January 15, 2014 at 12:04 am)Polaris Wrote:

(January 14, 2014 at 11:54 pm)EgoRaptor Wrote: If you don't hate the Jews why do you tell lies to smear Israel & the Jewish people?

Being anti-Zionism, is not anti-Jewish, just like being against Obama, does not mean you're against the black. It just means you're anti-conservative.

Anti-Zionism=Antisemitism

(January 14, 2014 at 10:51 am)Drich Wrote: How so?

Have a 911 call ignored and then you might know.

Quote:Take a step back and look big picture for a minute. Suffering and Death are just about the worst things that can happen to us in this life, take away suffering and death and something else will take it's place as "The worst thing that can happen in this life." To which I have no doubt it would be held up is the same regaurd as suffering and death.

Is this supposed to justify your position? I mean, seriously.

Quote:How can I say this? Because if you were to take another step back you would know suffering to be a temporing/proofing process that pushes people to grow Spiritually, and it should not be avoided just because of the discomfort.

God could have found a way for people to grow "spiritually" just as effectively without suffering and death, if he was really omni-capable and not evil.

Quote:Death or rather what we have labled as death is our birth into eternity. Whether that birth id followed by a 2nd death or eternal life is I guess why those without God fear or loathe the idea of it.

Christians are no less prone to scrape and cling desperately to this life as much as everybody else. You're lying so you can justify the evil you worship.

Quote:Back to my point. Suffering and death in the grand sceme of things is really not as bad as we make it out to be. It's not the end of the world but we treat it as such, which makes me believe no matter what we put in place of suffering and death it will still be treated as an end of the world event.

Again, an omnipotent being did not have to make it that way, and could only have done so because that's how he wanted it to be. You are just as lacking in imagination as the people who invented this nonsense.

Quote:From my studies I have learned we are ALL "that way" and we/Adam elected for us to be born that way via God's provaunaunce, and He did take responsiablity. What do you think the whole Jesus dying on the cross is about?

A giant scam designed to gather followers.

Quote:If you remember creation and the Garden, you would see this is exactly what He did. So what happened? He gave control of this realm over to Adam/Man and Man handed control of himself over to Satan. Therefore Satan rules this realm via the sins man is not willing to let go of.

That's definitely not how I remember it. How I remember it is that God put Adam and Eve in a paradise and decided, for no good reason, to fuck with them, tempt them knowing they were incapable of resisting, and then punished the everloving fuck out of them.

Had God just left things be, there would have been no fall and no sin. As with everything else, it is his fault that it all happened.

Quote:If you do not like how is world operates then join the rest of us in the Prayer Jesus taught us to pray in that: "Your Kingdom Come, Your Will Be Done." In this prayer we see that God does not manage this world. The reason we are asked to pray this is to give this world back over to Him. (through the events outlined in the book of revelation)

God doesn't need an invitation, nor should he require one. He should actually live up to his 'ultimate good' status and actually do some good for a change. Preferably without us begging for it.

Quote:Maybe they repersent a truth your not wanting to see.

They don't even represent the truth of this specific situation.

Quote:But collectivly there is little we do not have control over.

Which would be useful if God didn't make us so fractious and divisive.

Quote:What car does that now? The idea of responsiablity means for us to take care of what we can and plan for unforseen happenings.

Why should we do that when we have someone to do it for us? Why should we be responsible at all? Why place that burden on us? He could have made us the people he wanted us to be without all of that.

Quote:kinda like real life eh?

A real life which was not created by an all-powerful being, yes.

Quote:we were otherwise God would not have given this world over to us.

Like with everything else God allegedly did, he could have done such a better job of it.

Quote:again God has taken responsiablity for his end through Christ. Now it is up to us to take care of our end by reaching out and accepting what has already been done for us.

All of the responsibility is God's. We are only his playthings.

What you call our 'responsibility' is nothing more than you making excuses for your god's complete lack of it. We didn't make this world. We didn't fill it with random disasters and dangers. We didn't make ourselves nor design our own traits and personalities. It cannot rationally be our collective fault that we are the way we are.

In North Korea, people starve to death and suffer random violence inflicted upon them by their Glorious Leader because they didn't love him enough?

(January 11, 2014 at 11:36 am)truthBtold Wrote: God sends forth two bears to kill forty-two children for making fun of Elisha’s bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24). Why would the omnibenevolent God feel the necessity to have two bears viciously maul little children for acting like…children? This is supposed to be the same “wonderful” and “loving” God who promises us eternal life. HMMM.

Not sure if you would say the same thing if your son got bullied and thrown himself off a bridge. There's many organizations against bullying and it is a common belief that bullying is wrong even when children are doing it.

So If I am mocked by cheeky boys (which happens occasionally due to my bald head) I could act like God and have them ripped apart or I could ignore them so that they get bored and go away or you can make a smart alec retort which makes them feel stupid.

Which is the more moral action?

(January 15, 2014 at 10:05 am)là bạn điên Wrote: So If I am mocked by cheeky boys (which happens occasionally due to my bald head) I could act like God and have them ripped apart or I could ignore them so that they get bored and go away or you can make a smart alec retort which makes them feel stupid.

Which is the more moral action?

No, you don't rip them apart you contact the proper authorities and have them discipline them. Hoping that the bullying will just go away is just wishful thinking and it's the worst way you can deal with bullying.

(January 14, 2014 at 5:29 am)themonkeyman Wrote: To me this verse raised very big problems such as?

Why does it appear that God of the entire universe only looks after a select handful of people in each generation?

From a "Calvinistic" Christian perspective – no idea. I do not deserve anything. Much like Kris Kristofferson says in his song “why me Lord”. But similarly we cannot adopt a fatalistic approach and say “It has been predetermined, and I cannot do anything to change God’s mind”.

Each of us has a responsibility – as a Christian to live by his Word, for non- Christians to accept or reject his offer of “Come to me”. Each person will be held accountable. The concept of election is not an easy one, one that usually gets calls as “being unfair” from non-Calvinists.
From me, real gratitude as a person undeserving of his affection, accepting his gracious offer and realizing that but for his grace to work in people’s lives, would have made the wrong choice. It is not a case of being “superior” –
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Quote:Why does it also appear that God would rather harm another of his created beings for the sake of the first one - Can he not 'Forgive Them'?

I do not quite know what you mean by “harming”. It seems to me that if you have made a choice, and being warned of the consequences prior to the effects, you are not being “harmed”, but receive that which you have knowingly made a choice for.
Justice requires penalty/retribution. That is also a concept in law “The punishment must fit the crime”, or in Bible language – “an eye for an eye.” You will know that each one of us sin against God’s law (as reflected in the Bible) on a daily basis. Not only by our outward actions, but also by our thoughts. So some form of penalty is due. You can choose to pay the penalty yourself, or accept Jesus’ substitutionary death on the cross for your sins.

Quote:Why when Jesus died on the Cross did no one die Immediately by bears etc.. - Surely Gods on son would have constituted Gods Wrath?

Please explain. I do not quite get the “drift”. But the way I understand it is that God’s own Son paid the penalty, so why did all the “unbelievers” not die immediately? For the same reason that they do not die now – by God’s grace only.

Quote:What is Gods intrest in the Jews? It also appears that they keep turning their back on him despite existence of his presence?

Firstly it seems to me that the Jews are still his "chosen" people. Little Israel is up against amazing forces yet will not be removed from their land - despite for instance threats by Hamas that it will destroy Israel in eight years time. Well, you can "watch this space". Diarise for nine years to be on the safe side.
Yes, they still reject The Christ and will (As I understand it) come back to Him prior to judgement day.
Why do they still turn their backs on Him, despite proof of his presence? Consider the miracles when they crossed the Red Sea, and when a pillar of cloud guided them?
We can ask the same question of our own generation. Despite the amazing universe in which we live, life as a miracle and the complexity of design (even Dawkins readily admits to some form of intelligence as long as it is not God), many (most?) still disbelieve.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Barnes comments as such:
"Being understood - His perfections may be investigated, and comprehended by means of his works. They are the evidences submitted to our intellects, by which we may arrive at the true knowledge of God."
Real science continuously come to new evidence of a fantastic universe which we cannot fathom even now - consider a "simple" thing like lightening.

Quote:Why even when the Jews turn their back on God he still continues to keep trying with them? Yet he ignores other creatures?

The Gospel was brought to the gentiles as well (you are an example) and each individual will be judged separately. God’s offer is open to you today, so he does not “ignore” other creatures but still offers the chance to repent and turn to Him. But just like the Jews, we often prefer to reject God’s authority, and prefer to “do our own thing”. Like a type of “No rules”.

Quote:Why does God have it in for the Gentiles? He created them?!

He does not “have it in” for the Gentiles. He died for everyone that believes in Him. Jew, gentile, black, white. coloured, Asian, European, male, female, fat, thin, rich, poor, tall, short….you get the picture.
Eventually all our arguments boil down to a personal decision.

(January 15, 2014 at 1:56 pm)Ksa Wrote:

(January 15, 2014 at 10:05 am)là bạn điên Wrote: So If I am mocked by cheeky boys (which happens occasionally due to my bald head) I could act like God and have them ripped apart or I could ignore them so that they get bored and go away or you can make a smart alec retort which makes them feel stupid.

Which is the more moral action?

No, you don't rip them apart you contact the proper authorities and have them discipline them. Hoping that the bullying will just go away is just wishful thinking and it's the worst way you can deal with bullying.

My experience is different. Firstly is when you see a group of boys who are bored and looking for amusement. If they seem me they might shout 'oi egg head who stole your wig' normally I would just ignore them and they go away OR occasionally I might find something about the first kid who shouts and say something like " If your voice wasn't so squ"eaky I might be able to hear your properly" which normally makes his friends laugh at him and ideally you hera hims ay "yeah just shut up" which means you've won. EIther works.

I really don;t see a bit of name calling as bullying. Ongoing harrassment is something different.

(January 16, 2014 at 3:10 am)Carnavon Wrote: I do not quite know what you mean by “harming”. It seems to me that if you have made a choice, and being warned of the consequences prior to the effects, you are not being “harmed”, but receive that which you have knowingly made a choice for.

We are being harmed because Christian salvation is God saving us from a fire he himself set. It's a stupendously horrifying extortion and it boggles the mind that there are so many people who play into it.

Quote:Justice requires penalty/retribution. That is also a concept in law “The punishment must fit the crime”, or in Bible language – “an eye for an eye.” You will know that each one of us sin against God’s law (as reflected in the Bible) on a daily basis. Not only by our outward actions, but also by our thoughts. So some form of penalty is due. You can choose to pay the penalty yourself, or accept Jesus’ substitutionary death on the cross for your sins.

What you describe is not justice. It is simple, animal revenge. It is the "justice" of the cruel and wicked, and the "crime" is opting to not enslave ourselves.

The worst part about the entire nightmarish fairy tale is that, by any objective measure, God is ultimately responsible for every single evil that exists in a universe he allegedly made. We're just the hapless victims, and Christianity blames the products for the flaws intentionally and maliciously designed by their creator.

Of course, all of this should be read in the context, because it's all totally fictional horseshit. I'm not infantile enough to believe that the divine tyrant Yahweh exists, nor am I such a deliberate psychopath that I wish he did.

(January 16, 2014 at 3:10 am)Carnavon Wrote: I do not quite know what you mean by “harming”. It seems to me that if you have made a choice, and being warned of the consequences prior to the effects, you are not being “harmed”, but receive that which you have knowingly made a choice for.

You are walking home, when a man stops you in the street, brandishing a knife. He tells you to hand over your wallet, or he is going to stab you. If you refuse to surrender your wallet and give in to the unfair choice foisted upon you by this additional party, is the man justified in stabbing you to death?

You get in your car to drive, and end up crashing, rolling into a ditch. Is the rescue crew justified in leaving you there, after admonishing you that you knew this was a risk of driving, and yet knowingly did so anyway?

Or do we recognize, in the former case, that choices demanded of us outside of our control are not ones that we make freely? And do we recognize, in the latter case, that making that choice and reaching a bad end does not absolve others of the morality of helping?

I find it curious that you attribute every good act of charity and aid to your god, yet you aren't surprised when he never lifts a finger to do any himself.

(January 16, 2014 at 6:09 am)(╯°◊°）╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

Quote:Justice requires penalty/retribution. That is also a concept in law “The punishment must fit the crime”, or in Bible language – “an eye for an eye.” You will know that each one of us sin against God’s law (as reflected in the Bible) on a daily basis. Not only by our outward actions, but also by our thoughts. So some form of penalty is due. You can choose to pay the penalty yourself, or accept Jesus’ substitutionary death on the cross for your sins.

What you describe is not justice. It is simple, animal revenge. It is the "justice" of the cruel and wicked, and the "crime" is opting to not enslave ourselves.

The funny thing is, Christians came along and "solved" God's need for "justice" by the following: He can come to Earth, allowed himself to be tortured for six hours, and VIOLA! Justice for all perverse animalistic urges inherited by mankind has been served! (Only for those who trick themselves into belief though).