(January 21, 2014 at 4:56 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(January 20, 2014 at 6:59 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Close, but no cigar. Not yet. I'm still going with the faith of functionality. I don't believe whisky is good for me either, but I still drink it.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how functional do you think it is for you?

It varies. This week, about 7.

I did try getting by without it a few weeks ago, but the experiment was not a success.

(January 21, 2014 at 5:43 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

(January 21, 2014 at 4:56 am)Rayaan Wrote: On a scale of 1 to 10, how functional do you think it is for you?

It varies. This week, about 7.

I did try getting by without it a few weeks ago, but the experiment was not a success.

[christian tactic #07] You didn't try hard enough/for enough time. Do it again.... until it works!

(January 21, 2014 at 4:26 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

Quote: How do we know God is good? Because good is a standard of measure based on God. It is not independent of God. To have a standard independent of God, is to have a personal standard of righteousness apart from God. Or as Jesus identified it a "self righteousness."

My prophetic ability is almost mystical. Cower before me.

Drich, as I said on page one, this argument is only relevant or logically consistent from within the tautological loop. I can see where it works for you but really, is there any value at all to offering it to people OUTSIDE the loop?

Just because a truth can be identified as "X" does it make it any less true?

I had to google "tautological loop" as this was the first time I'd ever heard of it. this is what Wiki said:In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula which is true in every possible interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)

If this is what you meant then the reason I offered this was to offer you the truth. If you did not understand it then I offered it so you may question this position. allowing me to provide further explaination.

(January 21, 2014 at 5:48 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 21, 2014 at 5:43 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: It varies. This week, about 7.

I did try getting by without it a few weeks ago, but the experiment was not a success.

[christian tactic #07] You didn't try hard enough/for enough time. Do it again.... until it works!

Or just remain a Christian

---

(January 21, 2014 at 10:41 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 21, 2014 at 4:26 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: My prophetic ability is almost mystical. Cower before me.

Drich, as I said on page one, this argument is only relevant or logically consistent from within the tautological loop. I can see where it works for you but really, is there any value at all to offering it to people OUTSIDE the loop?

Just because a truth can be identified as "X" does it make it any less true?

I had to google "tautological loop" as this was the first time I'd ever heard of it. this is what Wiki said:In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula which is true in every possible interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)

If this is what you meant then the reason I offered this was to offer you the truth. If you did not understand it then I offered it so you may question this position. allowing me to provide further explaination.

I'll come back to this. Am baking flapjacks just now.

(January 21, 2014 at 12:04 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

(January 21, 2014 at 5:48 am)pocaracas Wrote: [christian tactic #07] You didn't try hard enough/for enough time. Do it again.... until it works!

Or just remain a Christian

I thought you were serious about it!

Oh I am / was! I just found the cognitive dissonance of trying NOT to believe somewhat harder than the cognitive dissonance of believing. I'm certain that if I kept challenging myself and reminding myself that all the things I think of as real are probably products of my own psyche I could push past that, but why? As people told me there is no payoff.

Quote:Just because a truth can be identified as "X" does it make it any less true?

I had to google "tautological loop" as this was the first time I'd ever heard of it. this is what Wiki said:In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula which is true in every possible interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)

If this is what you meant then the reason I offered this was to offer you the truth. If you did not understand it then I offered it so you may question this position. allowing me to provide further explaination.

A tautology is a piece of self supporting logic. For eg, lets say I say this cup of tea is the perfect temperature. Why is that? Because its neither too hot nor too cold. How do we know its not too hot? because its the perfect temperature. Its a non falsifiable statement.

That argument for God being good is the same. What is the nature of god? He is good. How do we KNOW he is good? Because he is God and good is good by definition. How do we know that this behavior is good? Because its god doing it. And why? Because it is god doing it.

Plug a different analogy in. I just made the perfect flapjack. How can you be sure? Because any flapjack I make is perfect. What makes it perfect? The fact that I made it and I make perfect flapjack.

The logic is circular. X because Y because X.

Now this if fine for anyone who accepts the initial premise. But lets say Pocacaras has tried my flapjacks and thinks I put too many cherries in. My logic now does not work. Then it goes thus.
" Its the perfect flapjack because I made it and I make perfect flapjack"
"fuck you, its vile"
"you don't understand, it CAN'T be vile because I made it and I make perfect flapjacks."
"get that stinking shit out of my face".

Same thing here. For "Its moral because god did it and everything God does is moral" only works if the victim of your logic accepts the core premise.

THAT is why its never going to be a successful argument when used on Flapjack / God skeptics.

(January 21, 2014 at 12:43 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Oh I am / was! I just found the cognitive dissonance of trying NOT to believe somewhat harder than the cognitive dissonance of believing. I'm certain that if I kept challenging myself and reminding myself that all the things I think of as real are probably products of my own psyche I could push past that, but why? As people told me there is no payoff.

HAHA, I remember telling you that!
The only payoff is knowing you're being honest with yourself and not believing in fairytales...

(January 21, 2014 at 12:43 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: A tautology is a piece of self supporting logic. For eg, lets say I say this cup of tea is the perfect temperature. Why is that? Because its neither too hot nor too cold. How do we know its not too hot? because its the perfect temperature. Its a non falsifiable statement.

That argument for God being good is the same. What is the nature of god? He is good. How do we KNOW he is good? Because he is God and good is good by definition. How do we know that this behavior is good? Because its god doing it. And why? Because it is god doing it.

01:18:55 [Ilia-probe] The creator is that which created V'Ger.

01:18:58[Kirk] Who is V'Ger?

01:19:00[Ilia-probe] V'Ger is that which seeks the creator.

(January 21, 2014 at 12:43 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Oh I am / was! I just found the cognitive dissonance of trying NOT to believe somewhat harder than the cognitive dissonance of believing.

How does not believing in something for which there is insufficient supporting evidence and valid/sound logic cause cognitive dissonance?

Quote:I'm certain that if I kept challenging myself and reminding myself that all the things I think of as real are probably products of my own psyche I could push past that, but why? As people told me there is no payoff.

But there are payoffs;

Intellectual honesty.

Knowing that your internal beliefs most likely map to reality more accurately.

Knowing that you will most likely be making important decisions based on a more accurate internal map.

I could go on...

(January 20, 2014 at 6:28 pm)Boris Karloff Wrote: I believe in 1 Chronicles God killed around 70,000 people because David ordered that a census be taken.

Can someone rationally and logically explain why this is...well...ok, and righteous? Especially when it came from a God who issued the commandment "thou shall not kill?"

I mean, fuck, I thought that the worst thing that happened regarding a census involved fava beans and a nice chianti.

It's thou shall not murder. Killing is justified quite often in the Bible, but murder was considered less than acceptable.

By the time Jesus came around, there was much less desire for killing than in previous times.

(January 20, 2014 at 7:22 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 20, 2014 at 6:42 pm)Boris Karloff Wrote: I guess that just leads to the much-repeated question, "how can anyone believe and dedicate themselves to a God of that nature?"

What do you think your options are?

A. Not believe in his existence until evidence for this presents itself, in which case:

B. … tell him to go fuck himself.