Thanks for everyones replies.

What do all you believers think about Darwins evolution theory, nature programs and scientific programs on TV that explain their theories on how the universe was created?
When you flick past these channels on TV, is it in your eyes just nonsense and unbarable to watch?

If you're praying to a God because you want yourself to feel good. Then why can't this be applied to a philosophical thought instead of a belief in a being that you have no idea about.
I'm going to start believing in hidden gnomes and pray that I will end up in gnome heaven, you can't disprove this religion but you know it's not true because of common sense.

So do you believe in Christianity because you have a bunch of stories written down? Otherwise I can't see any difference between religions based on the bible and trolls, ghosts, etc.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:08 am)fr0d0 Wrote: A placebo is unrelated. That's like saying the proofs of your world view is a placebo.

I'm taking about the comfort from the prayer, could be a placebo.

EvF

(March 6, 2010 at 6:29 pm)Soyouz Wrote:

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1. What happens if the religion you're believing in is wrong? Since there are more than the one God you're believing in. Don't you think it's a waste of time praying when you have no idea what might be the truth?
2. Don't you think heaven would be extremely boring after 5 billion years of being there, and still having forever left? It may be paradise but everything gets boring in the long run.
3. Who created God?
4. Why does God let bad things happen to good people?
5. The reason you don't commit horrible crimes, is it because you're afraid to be smited by God or because you think it's morally wrong?

I can guess what believers would answer to a few of these questions but I'd like to hear others opinions. And obviously some are more extreme than others.
Post more statements/questions if you have any .

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1a-Then it's wrong
1b-I have subjective truth to guide me and nothing positive is a waste of time. I also don't believe in more than 1 God.
2-Boring is a mindset of the self-serving mind. If perfection is ever reached I'd be content with that.
3-IDK
4-Usually because of bad people, bad decisions or nature
5-My morals exist outside of the Bible, but it's a great honing tool for the fine points. Worshiping for fear of reprisal or reward is just another sign of selfishness.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:23 am)Soyouz Wrote:

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Thanks for everyones replies.

What do all you believers think about Darwins evolution theory, nature programs and scientific programs on TV that explain their theories on how the universe was created?
When you flick past these channels on TV, is it in your eyes just nonsense and unbarable to watch?

If you're praying to a God because you want yourself to feel good. Then why can't this be applied to a philosophical thought instead of a belief in a being that you have no idea about.
I'm going to start believing in hidden gnomes and pray that I will end up in gnome heaven, you can't disprove this religion but you know it's not true because of common sense.

So do you believe in Christianity because you have a bunch of stories written down? Otherwise I can't see any difference between religions based on the bible and trolls, ghosts, etc.

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6-I believe in abiogenesis and evolution and don't see it as conflicting with a non-literalist view of the Bible.
7-If you're praying to feel good than it should be more applied to philosophical thought, like positive reinforcement. But then it's all about thereasoning behind it.
8-I believe in Jesus because I see truth in the Bible, I'd believe in a God if religion never existed. I just wouldn't have a very good definition of his aspects.

@EvF - Glad you're back btw, you need to clean up your pm's I had to resorts to email. In resonse to "I'm taking about the comfort from the prayer, could be a placebo." I'd say that when prayers are answered you feel "good" when prayers aren't answered you don't feel anythingand when they're answered but you're not sure the outcome you still feel good.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:23 am)Soyouz Wrote: What do all you believers think about Darwins evolution theory, nature programs and scientific programs on TV that explain their theories on how the universe was created?
When you flick past these channels on TV, is it in your eyes just nonsense and unbarable to watch?

I accept evolution theory.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:23 am)Soyouz Wrote: If you're praying to a God because you want yourself to feel good. Then why can't this be applied to a philosophical thought instead of a belief in a being that you have no idea about.

I have a lot of ideas about this God. I have a bible full of observations. I don't just want to feel good, that's just a result.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:23 am)Soyouz Wrote: I'm going to start believing in hidden gnomes and pray that I will end up in gnome heaven, you can't disprove this religion but you know it's not true because of common sense.

Quite. It'd be irrational. Unlike my faith.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:23 am)Soyouz Wrote: So do you believe in Christianity because you have a bunch of stories written down? Otherwise I can't see any difference between religions based on the bible and trolls, ghosts, etc.

I believe it because it pans out for me. To me Christianity is the most advanced and far reaching religion. That's not to say more basic manifestations don't have merit. They do.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:29 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I'm taking about the comfort from the prayer, could be a placebo.

Well yeah I regard all that as confirmation bias and put no store in it.

Evolution is interesting, sure. It seems like secular people might sometimes get a kind of Einstein/Darwin tunnel vision. Evolution is not a theory that contradicts faith, unless you decide to have a faith that itslef contradicts evolution. But evolution is not two things. It is not on purpose, in the sense that it is a side effect of time and change, of mutation and survival. In a world with time there needs to be change. If that change can include the genetic structure of things, than there will inevitably be positive and negative growth. Evolution is fantastic, but it is also very limited. Evolution is also not a complete answer. How did we get here? Evolution? Not fully. Evolution, survival of the fittest, random chance, cannot explain many things. The older examples are eyes and flagellan motors, bot apt. But I prefer bigger pieces of the puzzle. How does random natural selection make things that have many interrelated parts that have no overall function until the mechanism is complete? How does nature evolve amino acids and proteins, when you need aa's to make proteins, and proteins to make aa's. How did random chance evolve the genetic structure? When we got a grasp on the coding of life the argument for intelligent design got a lot more plausible. The machine that is DNA/RNA is miraculous in it's construction and function. So I don't disbelieve evolution, but I think it has more to do with beaks of finches in Galapagos than it does the philosophical queries of the origins of life.

(March 7, 2010 at 8:23 am)Soyouz Wrote: Thanks for everyones replies.

What do all you believers think about Darwins evolution theory, nature programs and scientific programs on TV that explain their theories on how the universe was created?
When you flick past these channels on TV, is it in your eyes just nonsense and unbarable to watch?

If you're praying to a God because you want yourself to feel good. Then why can't this be applied to a philosophical thought instead of a belief in a being that you have no idea about.
I'm going to start believing in hidden gnomes and pray that I will end up in gnome heaven, you can't disprove this religion but you know it's not true because of common sense.

So do you believe in Christianity because you have a bunch of stories written down? Otherwise I can't see any difference between religions based on the bible and trolls, ghosts, etc.

Incidentally, one of my good friends from high school is actually a pastor at a 'reformed evangelical' church, and he actually answered this question to a degree for me. He has never had much interest in science, and him being a young earth creationist is not based on science. He stated that he uses the bible as a 'filter' for anything and everything he hears. By his own admission, he effectively warps anything he sees around the bible, avoiding any outside influence in his appraisal of various topics. I advised him of the destructive nature of his denial, but I have come to the recent conclusion that some human minds simply cannot function without religion. Call it societal evolution that leads many of us to disbelief, but I am a firm believer that without the religious foundation, many minds would crumble.

I agree with you TD that your friends attitude is unhealthy, and well, contradictory. I can't believe people can deliberately blind themselves so severely. To me it seems like ambition takes them over and they stop seeing reason.

I would by default in all probability think that any "feel good" feelings that come from prayer is indeed down to the placebo effect. I know of no evidence of anything more than that.

@ Tackattack

Where does the selfless part come in in this feeling good when prayers being answered (whether answered how you want or not).

P.S: Sorry about my last PM's mess, I had to go out all of a sudden and I was in a confused mood so I guess I didn't think to save it as a draft and finish it later (maybe I was worried I'd forget if I did that... I dunno).

EvF

"Call it societal evolution that leads many of us to disbelief, but I am a firm believer that without the religious foundation, many minds would crumble."



Completely agree, it seems like some people have a need to believe in something.
Say if someone is raised within a certain religion, they grow up and know nothing else than that. Then some guy comes and tries to disprove what he has heard since he was born, smashing what he thought was the perfect answer to everything. Obviously he's not going to put his guard down and say "you're right".. I don't really know what point I was trying to make with this.

I think that there will always be some type of religion maybe not the same as it is today but in some other form, simply because people need it.

Quote:it seems like some people have a need to believe in something.

A fact which has led to the success of demagogues and con artists throughout our sad history.