Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 11:27 am (This post was last modified: March 10, 2010 at 11:30 am by tavarish.)
(March 10, 2010 at 12:51 am)tackattack Wrote:
(March 9, 2010 at 7:17 pm)tavarish Wrote:
(March 9, 2010 at 4:17 am)tackattack Wrote: I had to mail you beacuase your PM box was full that's all.. as to your question:
selflessness is all about intent. You can really take a narrow view and say you're praying to feel good, because it historically has felt good to pray, but that leads in a circle. If you pray to get joy or happiness then your intent is for a selfish goal.If you pray for someone elses joy or happiness then your intent is not based off self. If you are praying for someone else becuase it makes you feel good to help someone, then your intent is selfish.
1-So what happens if you pray for someone else to feel good, and by default it makes you feel good?
2-Honestly I do think religion is just made up along the way.
(March 9, 2010 at 4:17 am)tackattack Wrote: Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe.
3-You said God had a nature. He cannot act against that nature. He is subject to the laws of that nature. The only reason you say God could not have been created is because you believe it to be. It doesn't shed any light as to where the God attributes come from. It also imposes a pretty obvious double standard, as anything "prior" to the big bang would be unknown and definitely falls into the realm of existing outside our working knowledge of the universe.
4-God always was, but the universe somehow needs a creator.
(March 9, 2010 at 6:21 pm)Soyouz Wrote:
"Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe."
5-And how can you possibly know that?
6.Another question: How do you believers view God? What does he look like? Where does he live? Does he breath? Does he eat?Is he a spirit? Is it even a "he"?
If you're not God, you can't possibly know. But tell me what you think.
I'll post fr0d0's argument:
God is transcendent.
...and boom goes the dynamite.
(March 10, 2010 at 12:51 am)tackattack Wrote: 1-look up altruism, it's selfless.. that's intent
2-Religion's been around longer than science
3- Anything prior is unknown and definitely falls into the realm of existing outside our working knowledge of the universe. bolded is what I refer to as the known universe. God can exist inside the Universe, but outside our known universe.
4-He might or might not need or have a creator, all this is high speculation for me. I don't even posit that God exists withing our known universe. It is however a speculation on possibilities.
5-That the Earth is part of our percieved universe? I'm standing on it.
6- I can't speak for all believers just me. I don't see God as anything more than an absolute force radiating his attributes from outside our perceptable universe. Most probably see his as having human characteristics. I believe the Bible meant that he gave us free will and discernement to make us in his image not 2 arms 2 legs, etc.
1. I'm not talking about altruism, I'm talking about something that you know will make you feel good, and making someone else feel good as well. Would such an action be selfish? How do you know this to be true?
2. Alchemy's been around longer than chemistry, I don't see your point. Since it isn't based on anything concrete, you can literally make up anything you want and it can be justified. This is a scary proposition.
3. I think you're mixing around words and hoping they make sense. Our known universe is the universe. We don't know of any others. Anything more than that would be assertion without evidence. If you say God exists in our universe and we just haven't come across him yet, then it is only a matter of time before we widen the goalpoasts and disprove or prove his existence. I don't think this is what you're asserting, however, as fr0d0 would have a bone to pick with you as far as if a God can ever be known through objective means.
4. So you contend that God may live outside our universe, but have ways of manipulating things inside the universe - things that by their materialistic nature can be testable?
You still don't get the fact that you assign properties and a nature to God and give no account to why that is.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 2:14 pm
1- knowing the result does not dictate the intent. If you intend to help someone because they need it, it's selfless. If you intend to help someone because it feels good it's selfish, but not self-serving.
2-My point was just because it's not based of concrete tangible reality doesn't mean it's made up as we go. The definitions, interpretations and understanding gets better as we go.
3-Fr0d0's opinions/ interpretations are not my opinions. I'm not mixing words, I'm giving you my understanding. If the universe is a constant and defined as everything that exists, how can our knowledge of it grow and our perception of it widen as it does in astrology and physics. I still assert there is a distinction between the universe as a whole and what we can and have yet percieved of the universe.
4-subjectively yes
As to the last one, Are you asking for why I have faith in God's existence, why I believe I can know aspects of God, or just making a statement?
I've listed on here multiple times my reasonings for belief.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 2:40 pm
(March 10, 2010 at 2:14 pm)tackattack Wrote: 1- knowing the result does not dictate the intent. If you intend to help someone because they need it, it's selfless. If you intend to help someone because it feels good it's selfish, but not self-serving.
2-My point was just because it's not based of concrete tangible reality doesn't mean it's made up as we go. The definitions, interpretations and understanding gets better as we go.
3-Fr0d0's opinions/ interpretations are not my opinions. I'm not mixing words, I'm giving you my understanding. If the universe is a constant and defined as everything that exists, how can our knowledge of it grow and our perception of it widen as it does in astrology and physics. I still assert there is a distinction between the universe as a whole and what we can and have yet percieved of the universe.
4-subjectively yes
As to the last one, Are you asking for why I have faith in God's existence, why I believe I can know aspects of God, or just making a statement?
I've listed on here multiple times my reasonings for belief.
1. You wouldn't help someone on your own accord if it didn't make you feel good on at least some level. No selflessness is without an internal, instinctive reward.
2. "Better" is a subjective term, as many would disagree and state that the message of the religion has long since been lost. With something based solely in subjectivity, literally any claim that you make can be validated. I can say "God made me punch a baby" and I can find validation for it using religious means. The only reason our understanding of the world progresses is because of the scientific method and reason. If all of man had accepted without doubt that God was the creator of all things, we would not need to change our modes of thinking and try to find more rational and repeatable explanations for the world around us.
Thankfully, this isn't so, and religion is being slowly phased out of the Western world.
3. Where are you getting this information? How do you know it to be true?
4. What would happen if that reasoning was tested to be false?
I never asked you why you have faith, I'm asking you why God has such a nature rather than any other, and why he is subject to a nature.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 10:22 pm
Hey Adrian thanks man! I find you pathetic with your jaffa cakes and a cuppa. Sex with men as well, sheesh.
I know it cued you that I mentioned that Carlin's joke is close to reality. You are going to tell me about how America works from London?
But please, let me only respond to what you took the time to share.
I am happy that I am pathetic to you, because I am not at all fond of you. The less you think of me, the better I must be doing. Thank you for sharing your intellect and charm once again. Thank you for making such a website, so you can tell people in one sentence their pathetic. Hey, great work. Let me donate!
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Since when have I had sex with men? Odd...I rather think I would have remembered it.
Are you, a man who is an admitted tax protestor, conspiracy theorist, likely to believe any rot that comes his way, going to tell me about how America works from Canada?
Let me share my intellect once more with you. The word is "they're", not "their". You know what an apostrophe does in the middle of that word? It replaces a letter - or several - to create a shortened way of saying something. So "they are" (as in "tell people in one sentence they are pathetic") becomes "they're". Isn't language fascinating?
Go troll somewhere else; I think we've all had enough.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 11, 2010 at 1:34 am
Back to topic
(March 10, 2010 at 2:40 pm)tavarish Wrote:
(March 10, 2010 at 2:14 pm)tackattack Wrote: 1- knowing the result does not dictate the intent. If you intend to help someone because they need it, it's selfless. If you intend to help someone because it feels good it's selfish, but not self-serving.
2-My point was just because it's not based of concrete tangible reality doesn't mean it's made up as we go. The definitions, interpretations and understanding gets better as we go.
3-Fr0d0's opinions/ interpretations are not my opinions. I'm not mixing words, I'm giving you my understanding. If the universe is a constant and defined as everything that exists, how can our knowledge of it grow and our perception of it widen as it does in astrology and physics. I still assert there is a distinction between the universe as a whole and what we can and have yet percieved of the universe.
4-subjectively yes
As to the last one, Are you asking for why I have faith in God's existence, why I believe I can know aspects of God, or just making a statement?
I've listed on here multiple times my reasonings for belief.
1. You wouldn't help someone on your own accord if it didn't make you feel good on at least some level. No selflessness is without an internal, instinctive reward.
2. "Better" is a subjective term, as many would disagree and state that the message of the religion has long since been lost. With something based solely in subjectivity, literally any claim that you make can be validated. I can say "God made me punch a baby" and I can find validation for it using religious means. The only reason our understanding of the world progresses is because of the scientific method and reason. If all of man had accepted without doubt that God was the creator of all things, we would not need to change our modes of thinking and try to find more rational and repeatable explanations for the world around us.
Thankfully, this isn't so, and religion is being slowly phased out of the Western world.
3. Where are you getting this information? How do you know it to be true?
4. What would happen if that reasoning was tested to be false?
I never asked you why you have faith, I'm asking you why God has such a nature rather than any other, and why he is subject to a nature.
1- I will respectfully disagree with that. If you feel there are no true selfless acts then I can't change your mind on that and won't try. I feel there are, I have, and hopefully more people will.
2-I agree science has made wide leaps in knowledge on teh tangible world. It simply doesn't have the tools for the intangible, yet, which was my only point.
3-http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/universe and my understanding of the universe. The greek geocentric models were replaced by heliocentric models. It's easy to see that the term universe from a cosmological standpoint has grown up a bit through the centuries. I was just making a distinction between the everything and the everything we currently know.
4- Then it would be thrown out.
Everything that we can percieve and define has a nature. God may not indeed need a nature, but for us to perceive him we have to assign it a nature.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 11, 2010 at 10:15 pm
Hey,
Please allow me to apologize for flying off of the handle. I get really angry at people who only add one sentence to the conversation, and that one sentence is a blind insult. I would have been more happy to read 'I think you are pathetic if you consider Carlin's joke to be an apt depiction of reality'. I know that is likley what you were meaning. And you are welcome to think I am pathetic, and I am welcome to think you are.
This has come up before in the methinks it is like a weasel thread.
Quote:Since when have I had sex with men?
You were proudly bi-sexual when we were discussing gayness back in the day. I thought the definition of bi-sexual included sex with men... I may have been wrong. It is not much of a burn though. Could have sex with vegetables or something worse.
Quote:Are you, a man who is an admitted tax protester, conspiracy theorist, likely to believe any rot that comes his way, going to tell me about how America works from Canada?
I am a proud tax protester. No blood on my hands. Well less blood. I am not an admitted CT, if you will remember I remonstrate with you every time you call me that. The idea of a CT is itself detached from reality. I don't beleive any rot that comes my way, I am not a believer in the bible or the god delusion. I don't watch shitty brainwashing TV, play modern warfare 2 all day. I have less rot in my life than the average bear. And yes, I will tell you how America works from Canada. You don't have to listen, but I will tell you. I am American. I was raised for 10 years in America. I visit often, I had a residence there three years ago. I am well read and versed on American history and modernity. I live 35 minutes from America in the capital of the 53rd state. I know America. Unfortunately...
Again, please allow me to apologize. I am not a troll. 4chan zit farms that cause consternation on purpose are trolls. But you won't listen. If Adrian deems you a troll or a CT than you must be. It is his web site.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 12, 2010 at 7:51 am
aside from the minor off topic distraction I apologize DBP for missing your question.
(March 10, 2010 at 2:24 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: What are these aspects of god Tack?
Divine Love
Divine Joy
Calmness/ Peace
Divine Wisdom
Creator/ Sculptor
Omnimax
whole yet seperate (trinity)
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 12, 2010 at 2:58 pm
(March 12, 2010 at 7:51 am)tackattack Wrote: aside from the minor off topic distraction I apologize DBP for missing your question.
(March 10, 2010 at 2:24 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: What are these aspects of god Tack?
Divine Love
Divine Joy
Calmness/ Peace
Divine Wisdom
Creator/ Sculptor
Omnimax
whole yet seperate (trinity)
You don't find any of these to be logically impossible?
Omnipotent yet unable to go against his nature? and subject to a nature?
1 entity = 3 entities?
An absolute of a subjective emotion (love, joy)
Calmness and Peace - punishment of sin and apostasy anyone?
Although the creator/sculptor is not logically impossible, if it were true, he would have to be a very inefficient creator, or have a very good sense of humor. 99 percent of species on this planet have died out, and divine intervention came ONLY after billions of years of development, just to make a species that has many inadequacies, shortcomings, and irrational fears.
