(February 8, 2014 at 9:59 am)khan4036 Wrote: M not associating my first assertion with next one. I'm trying to explain my first assertion though in some other way to make you understand. I can explain the idea more perfectly by quoting Islam but I dont want to.

The issue is that you're supporting your initial assertion with a rephrasing of the same assertion: you've basically said that you believe the universe was created with a purpose because you look around and see that the universe must have been created with a purpose because of what you see.

That's not evidence.

Quote:How can you say that the birds talk of sex and food ?? Thats a poor guess if it is.

There's an area of study called ornithology, and in it a lot of smart people observe bird behavior and calls, and what actions those calls elicit in other birds. It's not a guess, it's a joke, but it was based on some evidence.

(February 8, 2014 at 10:04 am)Esquilax Wrote: The issue is that you're supporting your initial assertion with a rephrasing of the same assertion: you've basically said that you believe the universe was created with a purpose because you look around and see that the universe must have been created with a purpose because of what you see.

(February 8, 2014 at 10:04 am)Esquilax Wrote: That's not evidence.

The evidence m giving is what I experience and believe. That evidence might not be sufficient for you until you experience it yourself. The thing is we humans are ignorant to what's happening around ourselves. We never take a moment back from our lives to observe what's basically happening. Orinthology , the bird science which you suggested was also developed after observing the birds closely. Aristotle in 350 BC in his Historia Animalium noted the habit of bird migration, moulting, egg laying and life spans and introduced and propagated several myths. Still , this science is poor and steadily advancing till they understand fully what the birds really say to each other. The Quran ( The Holy Book of Islam ) has mentioned that the birds praise God continually. Where has Orinthology explained this ?
Coming back to the topic , what I'm saying is that I have felt the reason to be here. Over times , I have pondered on my condition and my final state before death. If we all were to live in peace and only good-deeds-doers lived, then there was no point in creating the universe. Evil will exist till the end. How the humans will stand in the struggle between good and bad is what's interesting to see. Even the materials that serve us will die too in the end.
P.S. I would like to quote an incident mentioned by Quran here. Adam , the first prophet was told to settle in Paradise. He had everything there. He was only told to not eat a certain apple from a tree in paradise which he did. So , he was sent to Earth to live there. The creation of that tree was definitely meant to test him to see if he could obey the orders. Then he was sent to Earth to cultivate the generation of humans , good or bad, who could be examined later and ultimately lead them to Heaven or Hell.

(February 8, 2014 at 10:57 am)khan4036 Wrote: The evidence m giving is what I experience and believe.

Both of which are useless as evidence. Experience and belief are like fingerprints; everybody has them and they're all different.

(February 8, 2014 at 10:57 am)khan4036 Wrote: Still , this science is poor and steadily advancing till they understand fully what the birds really say to each other. The Quran ( The Holy Book of Islam ) has mentioned that the birds praise God continually. Where has Orinthology explained this ?

It isn't that ornithology hasn't caught up with the Koran. It simply disagrees. In fact what you most often hear birds saying is:

"Mine! Get out! Mine!"

"I am fit and capable. Lets fuck."

"Look out!"

"I'm over here. Over here now."


Unlike many people, they know what speaking is for.

(January 31, 2014 at 6:36 am)Rayaan Wrote: I believe that everything in the universe has a single intrinsic purpose behind them, which is: to praise and glorify the Creator, and especially to remember Him. In Islam, simply the act of remembering God is considered to be an act of worship, and one of the most virtuous/rewarding types of worship.

<snip>
Yes, and the Quran says: "O mankind, it is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise" (35:15), which means that Allah doesn't actually "need" nor "want" any of our worship, except that it is we who are in need of Him and that he is simply worthy of worship just by being who He is.

What kind of being creates something for the purpose of being worshiped?

What a disgusting view. I'm sorry that you think of yourself in those terms, that you think so little of yourself.

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(January 31, 2014 at 2:26 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Some atheists display cognitive dissonance about meaning and purpose. On the one hand they insist that the natural world has no teleological properties. Then they turn around and claim their lives can still have significance, thereby inserting teleology back into reality.

My finding a purpose does not 'insert teleology back into reality', it merely exists as thoughts in my mind.

You clearly lack the ability to find your own purposes, so you can't see how others can.

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(January 31, 2014 at 5:47 pm)Rayaan Wrote:

(January 31, 2014 at 6:57 am)max-greece Wrote: Rayaan,

So according to what you've just written the whole point of life is to praise and glorify the creator - who doesn't need it.

How pointless is THAT life!!!

Could you just run by me again why we need it? I seem to have missed that.

We need Him to be guided to the Straight Path (Sirat al-Mustaqeem). Otherwise we are like people who are riding on a rudderless boat with no sense of direction ...


but some people take their own desires as their god - and thereby they have strayed away from the path: "Have you seen the one who takes his own desire as his god? Then would you be responsible for him? Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are but as the cattle; nay, they are farther astray from the path." [Surah 25:43–44]

Oh, goody, more of your subservient, anti-human religion. Try thinking your own thoughts instead of the ravings of a schizophrenic.

(February 8, 2014 at 10:57 am)khan4036 Wrote: Orinthology , the bird science which you suggested was also developed after observing the birds closely. Aristotle in 350 BC in his Historia Animalium noted the habit of bird migration, moulting, egg laying and life spans and introduced and propagated several myths. Still , this science is poor and steadily advancing till they understand fully what the birds really say to each other. The Quran ( The Holy Book of Islam ) has mentioned that the birds praise God continually. Where has Orinthology explained this ?

You can only really discern what bird calls mean by observing what reactions they tend to ellicit. If a particular type of call causes birds to scramble in the presence of a predator, it would suggest that that particular sound means "danger". Others might correlate to the discovery of a food source etc. When some people in the desert living centuries ago said that birds call to praise god, and didn't provide any observational evidence or record any results, most Orinthologists discard these stories as what they most likely are; nonsense. If all/most bird calls can be shown to serve a more likely purpose then we can rationally discard other purposes. It's possible some calls have dual functions (to advertise sexual availability and to show-off to rival birds for example) but without any obvious link between a certain bird call and deity worship, why would any bird professional make such connections to god, especially when the physiological evidence overwhelmingly suggests that bird brains aren't even able to conceptualise such abstract notions? Bird language and thought is surely rudimentary compared to human language and thought. We can't completely rule out animal 'pondering' but when most of their behaviour shows clear links to other priorities we simply have no reason to invoke deity worship. The qu'ran is a series of claims, not evidence for the claims, and whatever the qu'ran says about animal behaviour it should ideally provide supporting evidence (maybe with sound/video recordings and stats for example) so that the stuff can be peer reviewed. Nobody studying virtually anything would even think to check what the qu'ran says, because it is dated and irrelevant, containing no useful observational or measurable evidence for anything it claims.

Quote:Adam , the first prophet was told to settle in Paradise. He had everything there. He was only told to not eat a certain apple from a tree in paradise which he did. So , he was sent to Earth to live there. The creation of that tree was definitely meant to test him to see if he could obey the orders. Then he was sent to Earth to cultivate the generation of humans , good or bad, who could be examined later and ultimately lead them to Heaven or Hell.

Well that's a lovely story, christians have the same one and use it to peddle the vile myth that sin is inherited and can pass from generation to generation. It's a crap lesson in moral virtues and provides no nods to any external evidence that any of these fictional characters ever existed. Again, why would we take ignorant stories from the desert seriously?

(February 8, 2014 at 5:23 am)khan4036 Wrote: Thats a good question. Though m not atheist , but I would like to answer it anyway.

We were all created for some purpose. Everyone has some purpose most likely different than the other. Its on the individual to discover what purpose he's been sent here for. Our God wants to put us in a trial and then reward those who would be successful in this trial. He may have set some other purpose too for creation of this universe. However , the universe is the perfect abode for this trial. Our deeds can be best tested in this ideal condition.We are told to do good to Humanity , discover the secrets that lie behind the veils and stay away from lust. Dont you think the creation of universe , our coming into this world and our death is in virtually accordance with it ??

As said in Quran ," and the heavens we created with might (power) and we are expanding it."

There is precisely zero evidence that any of that is true.

It is time for people to grow up and leave the fairy tales behind.

(February 8, 2014 at 10:57 am)khan4036 Wrote: The evidence m giving is what I experience and believe.

Yes, and as I've been explaining, those things aren't evidence. Everyone has experiences, that doesn't make them true; if we lower our expectations for evidence to that level, we'd have to accept the experiences of every other religion too, not to mention the experiences of every kook with a whacked out idea out there. If you're happy just saying your beliefs are on equal ground with everyone else on the planet that's fine, but here I was thinking you actually thought your beliefs are true.

Quote:That evidence might not be sufficient for you until you experience it yourself. The thing is we humans are ignorant to what's happening around ourselves. We never take a moment back from our lives to observe what's basically happening.

And if I do this and don't come to the same conclusion you did?

Quote:The Quran ( The Holy Book of Islam ) has mentioned that the birds praise God continually. Where has Orinthology explained this ?

Ornithology hasn't explained this because it's wrong. You would need evidence to demonstrate that it's true before any science would report on it.

Quote:The Quran ( The Holy Book of Islam )

Sorry. Shouldn't laugh, but that tickled me.

Are there any OTHER Quran's? As in, the quaran the holy book as opposed to the quran the cookery book? Is the clarification necessary?

Sorry. Continue.