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February 18, 2014 at 5:38 am (This post was last modified: February 18, 2014 at 5:40 am by Alex K.)
(February 17, 2014 at 6:43 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Outside of that you have NDEs which I think are good evidence for conscious survival beyond the physical state as there is a good case to be made that the brain is entirely biologically non-functional while they are having this experience.
No, if NDEs are evidence of anything, then that your brain does funny things when oxygen is low and Co2 is high. Whatever memory you have of such an experience does not reliably reflect the true timescale of how quickly and when it has actually taken place. There is no reason to think that it has taken place while the brain was non-functional.
(February 18, 2014 at 5:38 am)Alex K Wrote: No, if NDEs are evidence of anything, then that your brain does funny things when oxygen is low and Co2 is high.
The point of interest is that their brain shouldn't be doing anything at all if they are in a full biological inactive state. You're claiming that consciousness is merely the bi-product of the biological process to begin to begin with though you're basing this upon an assumption without evidence. What you have is the equivalent of a blind faith.
Quote: Whatever memory you have of such an experience does not reliably reflect the true timescale of how quickly and when it has actually taken place. There is no reason to think that it has taken place while the brain was non-functional.
If someones heart stops beating they will enter the physical state of death in second there isn't enough time to have dream. And why would everyone have the same dream?
(February 19, 2014 at 8:52 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: The point of interest is that their brain shouldn't be doing anything at all if they are in a full biological inactive state.
You do understand that the brain is still active during an NDE, right?
Quote:If someones heart stops beating they will enter the physical state of death in second there isn't enough time to have dream. And why would everyone have the same dream?
They don't have the same dream, haven't you been listening? NDEs uniformly reflect the religious beliefs of the person having them.
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(February 19, 2014 at 8:52 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: If someones heart stops beating they will enter the physical state of death in second there isn't enough time to have dream.
So.... why do they make defibrillators?
According to you, if the heart stops, the person is brain dead... right... -.-'
Last I heard, there's a 5 minute windows of opportunity while the brain is still functioning, albeit in low power mode, but also in distress... so crazy things can happen in those 5 minutes.
And most people who go through the ordeal of cardiac arrest and close to brain death have reported no such dreams.
Only a hand-full claims the dreams and, like Esq said, they always reflect somehow the person's prior beliefs. Hinting that something in the brain is making the connection of almost death with the after-life they have been taught about.
Does this mean that that particular after-life scenario is real, or that it's the real one?
Doesn't look like, huh?
February 19, 2014 at 11:20 am (This post was last modified: February 19, 2014 at 11:25 am by Alex K.)
(February 19, 2014 at 8:52 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:
(February 18, 2014 at 5:38 am)Alex K Wrote: No, if NDEs are evidence of anything, then that your brain does funny things when oxygen is low and Co2 is high.
The point of interest is that their brain shouldn't be doing anything at all if they are in a full biological inactive state.
My point was that these memories can be formed while going into or leaving this inactive state. You can't tell the difference because when the brain is shutting down, the memory of perception of time passed gets completely skewed.
Quote:You're claiming that consciousness is merely the bi-product of the biological process to begin to begin with though you're basing this upon an assumption without evidence. What you have is the equivalent of a blind faith.
I give you evidence: when your brain gets shut down by appropriate chemicals, you lose consciousness and depending on how it goes, have no recollection of the time lost. Damage to certain parts of your brain changes your personality, heck, changes in brain chemistry are enough to do that. Damage to other parts will let you forget the face of your own mother, or will delete certain memories. If there is an immaterial soul on top of the brain, it doesn't seem to capture any important aspects of my personality, mind or memories.
Quote:If someones heart stops beating they will enter the physical state of death in second there isn't enough time to have dream. And why would everyone have the same dream?
Not really. The dream is culture-dependent - but even if it were the same dream, we're all human after all, and all kinds of things are hardwired into us over the course of evolution. We are after all on average attracted to mates of the same species, get conditioned to our parents and so forth. So there are certain things hardwired into all of us via evolution which let you expect to see certain similarities.
The brain is never in an inactive state until it is brain dead. When people have near death experiences, the brain releases chemicals that cause these visions and apparitions.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
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"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
(February 19, 2014 at 11:20 am)Alex K Wrote: My point was that these memories can be formed while going into or leaving this inactive state. You can't tell the difference because when the brain is shutting down, the memory of perception of time passed gets completely skewed.
Or alternatively consciousness isn't dependent on matter but instead is interactive with matter. What would be your objection against the more straightforward less convoluted hypothesis?
Quote:I give you evidence: when your brain gets shut down by appropriate chemicals, you lose consciousness and depending on how it goes, have no recollection of the time lost. Damage to certain parts of your brain changes your personality, heck, changes in brain chemistry are enough to do that.
The exact same thing would occur and be observed in the context of a direct interactive system. It has been demonstrated from brain activity scans that even people in comas are still apparently conscious in some way as they can react to words and requests, even if they may not remember this if they regain full waking consciousness.
Quote:Damage to other parts will let you forget the face of your own mother, or will delete certain memories.
Perhaps the brains ability to retrieve memories from consciousness is compromised? Where in the brain is memory even supposed to be stored anyway? There isn't a harddrive.
Quote: If there is an immaterial soul on top of the brain, it doesn't seem to capture any important aspects of my personality, mind or memories.
You can have consciousness first then the brain will act as a filter for this consciousness. Death would result in the brain being removed from the system of conscious expression and this would account for near death and mystic experiences over the centuries. Your system doesn't account for anything and there is no explanation or evidence for it. What you have their are blind assumptions based on nothing much like atheism itself.
Quote:Not really. The dream is culture-dependent - but even if it were the same dream, we're all human after all, and all kinds of things are hardwired into us over the course of evolution.
Perhaps different cultures interpret the same experience in the context of what they understand? That's what it seems like to me from what I have read of it.
Quote: We are after all on average attracted to mates of the same species, get conditioned to our parents and so forth. So there are certain things hardwired into all of us via evolution which let you expect to see certain similarities.
It could be the formation and development of life in the universe is a physical manifestation of consciousness as is the universe in it's entirety rather than the reverse. There's no evidence that matter exists first and then creates consciousness and the reverse would make equally as much if not more sense. Though this isn't something you can demonstrate with science it helps to take other factors and experiences into consideration. Make use of the full range of human history, experience and evidence rather than confining yourself to this narrow materialistic view.
(February 19, 2014 at 11:50 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:
(February 19, 2014 at 11:20 am)Alex K Wrote: My point was that these memories can be formed while going into or leaving this inactive state. You can't tell the difference because when the brain is shutting down, the memory of perception of time passed gets completely skewed.
Or alternatively consciousness isn't dependent on matter but instead is interactive with matter. What would be your objection against the more straightforward less convoluted hypothesis?
Quote:I give you evidence: when your brain gets shut down by appropriate chemicals, you lose consciousness and depending on how it goes, have no recollection of the time lost. Damage to certain parts of your brain changes your personality, heck, changes in brain chemistry are enough to do that.
The exact same thing would occur and be observed in the context of a direct interactive system. It has been demonstrated from brain activity scans that even people in comas are still apparently conscious in some way as they can react to words and requests, even if they may not remember this if they regain full waking consciousness.
Quote:Damage to other parts will let you forget the face of your own mother, or will delete certain memories.
Perhaps the brains ability to retrieve memories from consciousness is compromised? Where in the brain is memory even supposed to be stored anyway? There isn't a harddrive.
Quote: If there is an immaterial soul on top of the brain, it doesn't seem to capture any important aspects of my personality, mind or memories.
You can have consciousness first then the brain will act as a filter for this consciousness. Death would result in the brain being removed from the system of conscious expression and this would account for near death and mystic experiences over the centuries. Your system doesn't account for anything and there is no explanation or evidence for it. What you have their are blind assumptions based on nothing much like atheism itself.
Quote:Not really. The dream is culture-dependent - but even if it were the same dream, we're all human after all, and all kinds of things are hardwired into us over the course of evolution.
Perhaps different cultures interpret the same experience in the context of what they understand? That's what it seems like to me from what I have read of it.
Quote: We are after all on average attracted to mates of the same species, get conditioned to our parents and so forth. So there are certain things hardwired into all of us via evolution which let you expect to see certain similarities.
It could be the formation and development of life in the universe is a physical manifestation of consciousness as is the universe in it's entirety rather than the reverse. There's no evidence that matter exists first and then creates consciousness and the reverse would make equally as much if not more sense. Though this isn't something you can demonstrate with science it helps to take other factors and experiences into consideration. Make use of the full range of human history, experience and evidence rather than confining yourself to this narrow materialistic view.
February 19, 2014 at 12:06 pm (This post was last modified: February 19, 2014 at 12:13 pm by Alex K.)
(February 19, 2014 at 11:50 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:
(February 19, 2014 at 11:20 am)Alex K Wrote: My point was that these memories can be formed while going into or leaving this inactive state. You can't tell the difference because when the brain is shutting down, the memory of perception of time passed gets completely skewed.
Or alternatively consciousness isn't dependent on matter but instead is interactive with matter.
That's an unnecessary complication.
Quote:What would be your objection against the more straightforward less convoluted hypothesis?
"but instead is interactive with matter" is pretty much the definition of a more convoluted hypothesis
Quote:
Quote:I give you evidence: when your brain gets shut down by appropriate chemicals, you lose consciousness and depending on how it goes, have no recollection of the time lost. Damage to certain parts of your brain changes your personality, heck, changes in brain chemistry are enough to do that.
The exact same thing would occur and be observed in the context of a direct interactive system.
As I said, if your interactive system forgets the face of my mother only because a part of my brain stroked out, it's not very useful. But again, you are making the more convoluted hypothesis out of wishful thinking.
Quote:It has been demonstrated from brain activity scans that even people in comas are still apparently conscious in some way as they can react to words and requests, even if they may not remember this if they regain full waking consciousness.
I've made similar experiments with the use of C2H5OH, so what was your point?
Quote:
Quote:Damage to other parts will let you forget the face of your own mother, or will delete certain memories.
Perhaps the brains ability to retrieve memories from consciousness is compromised?
So you're saying that the ME which I experience is really my brain, and it needs to download memories from somewherefor me to have them? Seems like the brain is the relevant part then, no? In any case, any evidence for this complicated hypothesis?
Quote:Where in the brain is memory even supposed to be stored anyway? There isn't a harddrive.
Ok now you're being willfully obtuse, right? Is that the level on which you have thought about the issue? Where's the harddrive? That's pathetic!
Quote: If there is an immaterial soul on top of the brain, it doesn't seem to capture any important aspects of my personality, mind or memories.
You can have consciousness first then the brain will act as a filter for this consciousness.
Do you have any evidence for this complicated hypothesis?
Quote: Death would result in the brain being removed from the system of conscious expression and this would account for near death and mystic experiences over the centuries.
You don't need this complicated unevidenced hypothesis to explain NDEs
Quote:Your system doesn't account for anything and there is no explanation or evidence for it. What you have their are blind assumptions based on nothing much like atheism itself.
Right back at you, you are the one having to make up stuff about interactions and downloading memories from consciousness to the self or whatever, it's got theist wishful thinking writ large all over it.
February 19, 2014 at 12:06 pm (This post was last modified: February 19, 2014 at 12:09 pm by Sword of Christ.)
(February 19, 2014 at 12:00 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Do what he says there.
[/hide]
You're hopeless!
That's about all you can say because not only do you have no evidence to support your materialist conception of the universe it will if anything go against the full range of evidence we actually have and have had for thousands of years!
