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Revelation777, why don't you bring your OWN thoughts to the discussion instead of just agreeing with everything your "group" says. I've noticed you did this in other threads too.
If the bible was indeed the word of god, and a book we needed to take seriously and base our lives on, then he wouldn't have made it full of so many contradictions, and difficult to the point where you have to find out the original translation of this and that verse in order to understand what this and that meant. If it was indeed a "holy" book, there would be no need for different translations, everyone would just understand it. So, my two cents: What a load of rubbish.
February 20, 2014 at 4:58 am (This post was last modified: February 20, 2014 at 4:59 am by max-greece.)
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote:
(February 20, 2014 at 12:44 am)Rahul Wrote: Ok.
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"
Then it is immediately followed by "those who believe".
So the qualities of being "saved", "drive out demons", "speak in new tongues", etc. are all traits of those who "believe and is baptized".
More specifically whoever believes and is baptized.
"In verse 16 the word "believes" is an aorist participle referring to one who has believed at some time in the past. Also baptistries, translated "is baptized," is an aorist participle but in the passive voice. This form refers to an act of outward obedience, in this case, baptism. Therefore, the translation should be, "He who believed and who was baptized shall be saved." (Key Word Study Bible KJV. AMG Publishers, pg 1259)
(February 20, 2014 at 12:44 am)Rahul Wrote: So if only the remaining disciples have these abilities, if god is only meaning to say, "the remaining disciples who believe and are baptized" will have these qualities, then they also only have the quality of being saved as well. Everyone else? Not so much. By your own admission.
That would be true if the only verses in the Bible that deal with the issue of "belief" and "being saved" was Mark 16:16-18. For example John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." Here the verb believeth is in the present participle which expresses continuous or repeated action, without implying anything about the time of the action (in this case the belief). So all who believe in the past, in the present, and in the future will be saved.
(February 20, 2014 at 12:44 am)Rahul Wrote: And if god really meant the text to say, "Hey, only you remaining disciples, not just whoever" then why does it not plainly say that?
It does. Well not exactly as you've stated.
(February 20, 2014 at 12:44 am)Rahul Wrote: Because it was mistranslated? That warrants a failure in my book. Immediate reason not to trust anything the bible says.
That's a fallacy of composition/division. Furthermore the presumed failure would be on the translator not on the Bible. We have over 25,000 partial and complete manuscripts of the New Testament. If you have a question or concern over the proper "translation" of a given verse the resources are there for you to verify.
(February 20, 2014 at 12:44 am)Rahul Wrote: A god that uses trick questions/statements to determine whether you burn in eternal torment for eternity or paradise? Immediate reason not to trust anything the bible says.
Begging the question. God does not use trick questions/statements to determine whether a person suffers hell or is justified to glory in heaven. All who believe will be saved, those that don't will be damned.
(February 20, 2014 at 12:44 am)Rahul Wrote: ‘Snake Salvation’ pastor from Kentucky dies from snake bite
The Associated Press
First Published Feb 17 2014 09:40 am • Last Updated Feb 17 2014 09:45 am
GOD: Haha! Tricked you! You should have discussed what I really meant! Sucker!
It is written, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test." It is also written, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
(February 20, 2014 at 12:44 am)Rahul Wrote: Is god love? Does he love us? Or does he possess qualities, that if you encountered it in another human, you would immediately denounce them as being a depraved, evil, sick, SOB? Immediate reason not to trust anything the bible says.
Yes. Yes. Either-Or fallacy and begging the question. Not a logical conclusion.
I can't understand your answer here. Is it only Disciples that are immune from snake bites or all believers who are baptised?
Reading it straight it appears to be the latter.
Also when is it putting God to the test and when is it a demonstration of absolute faith?
It appears to me that the snake handlers are demonstrating their faith - not testing God. How do you know its not that?
Kuusi palaa, ja on viimeinen kerta kun annan vaimoni laittaa jouluvalot!
February 20, 2014 at 7:26 pm (This post was last modified: February 20, 2014 at 7:29 pm by Rahul.)
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote: "In verse 16 the word "believes" is an aorist participle referring to one who has believed at some time in the past. Also baptistries, translated "is baptized," is an aorist participle but in the passive voice. This form refers to an act of outward obedience, in this case, baptism. Therefore, the translation should be, "He who believed and who was baptized shall be saved." (Key Word Study Bible KJV. AMG Publishers, pg 1259)
So God first gave us the bible so we would know how to live and then passively allowed it to be garbled and mistranslated. Gotcha.
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote: That would be true if the only verses in the Bible that deal with the issue of "belief" and "being saved" was Mark 16:16-18. For example John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." Here the verb believeth is in the present participle which expresses continuous or repeated action, without implying anything about the time of the action (in this case the belief). So all who believe in the past, in the present, and in the future will be saved.
Yeah, I know John 3:16. I was raised Southern Baptist. That sect of Christianity believes in once saved, always saved. The impossibility of apostasy.
However, other sects of Christianity point out verses that speak of names being blotted out of the book of life. Thereby implying that apostasy is very real.
Because the bible isn't clear and contradicts itself you have different denominations with different beliefs, even when it comes to salvation.
This is one of the reasons I turned into an atheist later in life.
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote: It does. Well not exactly as you've stated.
Tell that to the Kentucky preacher that died from the snake handling.
Obviously it's not clear enough. Guess god didn't have the ability to make it more clear.
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote: That's a fallacy of composition/division. Furthermore the presumed failure would be on the translator not on the Bible. We have over 25,000 partial and complete manuscripts of the New Testament. If you have a question or concern over the proper "translation" of a given verse the resources are there for you to verify.
Hey, that's great. I'll just fire up the computer and use the internet. Or I'll drive in my 2007 Avalon to go to a major library for research. No problem.
Did a poor dirt farmer living in the Ozarks back in 1832 have these options? Nope. Too bad for them. They were stuck with versions of the bible that god allowed to be garbled beyond trustworthiness. Sucks.
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Begging the question. God does not use trick questions/statements to determine whether a person suffers hell or is justified to glory in heaven. All who believe will be saved, those that don't will be damned.
Not according to some sects of Christianity. A lot of them believe that you can believe in Jesus Christ but still fall out of salvation because of sins.
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote: It is written, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test." It is also written, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
The bible should have also put in a disclaimer that a lot of things it says are BS and to not attempt in real life.
(February 20, 2014 at 2:59 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Yes. Yes. Either-Or fallacy and begging the question. Not a logical conclusion.
Fallacy fallacy. You believe in an invisible, all powerful sky daddy and you're lecturing me about logical conclusions?
Grow up, son.
Everything I needed to know about life I learned on Dagobah.
@Rahul, I think he did a brilliant job of spanking your hogwash, just because you're not smart enough to counter you throw out the same trash you always do.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(February 21, 2014 at 3:13 am)Godschild Wrote: @Rahul, I think he did a brilliant job of spanking your hogwash, just because you're not smart enough to counter you throw out the same trash you always do.
GC
Mockery is not an argument, GC.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
(February 21, 2014 at 3:13 am)Godschild Wrote: @Rahul, I think he did a brilliant job of spanking your hogwash, just because you're not smart enough to counter you throw out the same trash you always do.
February 21, 2014 at 5:54 am (This post was last modified: February 21, 2014 at 5:54 am by Bob Kelso.)
Just going to leave this here;
You theists don't find it odd that an omiscient deity couldn't just spell out what he bloody well meant and had to leave things to interpretation? No, just me? Ok.
(September 17, 2015 at 4:04 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: I make change in the coin tendered. If you want courteous treatment, behave courteously. Preaching at me and calling me immoral is not courteous behavior.
(February 21, 2014 at 3:13 am)Godschild Wrote: @Rahul, I think he did a brilliant job of spanking your hogwash, just because you're not smart enough to counter you throw out the same trash you always do.
GC
Not really. The tired old argument that the bible was mistranslated is always a failure in my eyes.
I can't believe that an all-powerful, loving god would go through all the trouble of giving us a manuscript for how to live and then sit back and watch it get changed and mutilated where it's no longer reliable.
Fucking ridiculous.
Everything I needed to know about life I learned on Dagobah.
Thomas Paine Wrote:"The continually progressive change to which the meaning of words is subject, the want of a universal language which renders translation necessary, the errors to which translations are again subject, the mistakes of copyists and printers, together with the possibility of willful alteration, are of themselves evidences that the human language, whether in speech or in print, cannot be the vehicle of the Word of God. The Word of God exists in something else."
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