Very interesting thread.

I'm reminded in reading through it, in reading the self righteous replies of indignation against addicts, of when I was a follower of Christianity, and how so many Christian heterosexuals viewed homosexuality as the "worst" of all the sins. As if "their sin" was somehow less than evil, in the eyes of God.

Sadly I see the same venom spewed from non religious folks/atheists here towards drug addicts, as though they are the lowest of life forms. Perhaps someone should send a memo to all those who live in glass houses? You too have vices. They may not be drug affiliated, but you too struggle just like the next person. You may deal with those struggles differently than a drug addict, but you are not superior to them, simply because you haven't succumbed to a drug habit.

That yardstick that you measure others with, just may be the one someone has against you someday. Being compassionate doesn't make you weak, it makes you human. I'm not suggesting to enable drug addiction but to treat addicts as if they deserved their lot or you are somehow superior to them, is for lack of a better word...ignorant.

I'm glad I read this thread and not glad. :/

(February 27, 2014 at 3:40 am)Aractus Wrote:

(February 25, 2014 at 8:15 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

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From a purely pragmatic point of view in a country with health care, there are many good reasons. The biggest is the same ones as for free contraception. You could probably supply free needles for every addict in the country for what it would cost to treat one person with HIV.

Then there are the hidden costs. We have to keep our sharps bins in a locked compound because a full, sealed bin has a street value of about 20 quid to people who crank them to reuse.

Finally and perhaps most importantly, you're missing the significant bit of the exchange. It's not what they take away, it's what they bring back. Every infected needle they bring back to swap is one they don't drop in the street, or at the park. The public health benefits alone make it worthwhile.

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While those are good points they are not absolute. A needle could be infected with HIV, however after just a few minutes the needle will be harmless. On the other hand Hepatitis B can survive, or so it's claimed, for a number of days. Thus a needled infected with Hep B will stay infected for a longer duration.

But what you've failed to address is the actual problem that needle exchanges try to address - and that is infection from sharing needles, not infections from discarded needles.

And then there is the unjust aspect to it which you haven't addressed - it's not right to give people who don't need something that item for free while those who do need them do not receive them for free. What's the problem with charging something? Imagine the vending machine dispenses needles for $0.70c, or if a needle is returned dispenses one for 0.20c? Where's the problem with that model?

No problem, it's a good idea. Although one thing it doesn't do is give the health service the opportunity to make contact with the addicts. That's not a small thing. Gives the opportunity for outreach, monitoring and rehab. Again, justice doesn't enter into it, it's pure pragmatism.

So far as discarded needles, just as happy nor to take the risk. I've never had to do hiv post exposure prophylaxis but I know someone who did. Not at all fun! And so far as sharing needles, a ready supply of new ones removes the need to share.

So far as need, take my word for it, these people need those needles. Leave alone the horror of withdrawal, and it I'd horrible, withdrawal can kill.

Jacob nailed it.

Needle exchanges et al allows for trust in the medical establishment to be built, metrics on addicts to be taken and a chance at establishing a rapport that may help lift them out of their addiction.

Done carefully and you can mitigate the issue to a smaller problem.

(February 27, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: (...) towards drug addicts, as though they are the lowest of life forms.

There was a point in my life, I couldn't consider my life without heroin worth of living. Being on the other side for almost 14 years now, it does look foolish.

To be honest, even Spud from trainspotting deserves a chance, no matter how deep he is.

(February 27, 2014 at 12:47 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: And so far as sharing needles, a ready supply of new ones removes the need to share.

Incorrect, because it's a 1:1 exchange. What it means is that users use new, clean needles instead of the same needle over and over again. A bit like turning a condom inside out. What is much more important is education - if people realized the risks of taking the drugs in the first place they'd be less likely to use ice and heroin, and more likely to use the safer drugs like cocaine and thc (I'm not advocating the use of these either fyi). But also, importantly, they could be educated on the risks of contracting hepatitis b and other STI's through needle sharing.

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(February 27, 2014 at 2:39 pm)LastPoet Wrote: There was a point in my life, I couldn't consider my life without heroin worth of living. Being on the other side for almost 14 years now, it does look foolish.

On the old forums I used to be a member of we use to have an ex-coke addict/dealer. You could say that we were mortal enemies. This person's lifestyle cost them their child (apparently murdered in front of them). That's what it cost them, but then how many other parents lost their children because of that person?

But you know, the interesting fact is that she claimed that "oh well I started using coke because I had to work 20 hours a day" - yep same reason that draws in many addicts.

Ah that brings back fond memories of our online debates!

(February 27, 2014 at 2:39 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(February 27, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: (...) towards drug addicts, as though they are the lowest of life forms.

There was a point in my life, I couldn't consider my life without heroin worth of living. Being on the other side for almost 14 years now, it does look foolish.

To be honest, even Spud from trainspotting deserves a chance, no matter how deep he is.

That's right.

Thing is, I believe we are inherently valuable. We don't suddenly gain more value, or lose our value based on what we do or don't do, if we walk a straight line all of our lives, or fuck up.

We have value, whether we choose a bad path here and there, or not. This notion that a person is ''filth,'' or ''trash'' based on bad choices, is ignorant. At any given time, on any given day, any of us, could find our lives totally out of control. Yes, we need to take responsibility for our actions, but that doesnt exonerate me from showing compasson to those who just don't where to turn.

The real tragedy comes when someone loses his or her way completely, unable to find the right path back to well being. That is what addiction often does. It's very gripping.

(February 27, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(February 27, 2014 at 2:39 pm)LastPoet Wrote: There was a point in my life, I couldn't consider my life without heroin worth of living. Being on the other side for almost 14 years now, it does look foolish.

To be honest, even Spud from trainspotting deserves a chance, no matter how deep he is.

That's right.

Thing is, I believe we are inherently valuable. We don't suddenly gain more value, or lose our value based on what we do or don't do, if we walk a straight line all of our lives, or fuck up.

We have value, whether we choose a bad path here and there, or not. This notion that a person is ''filth,'' or ''trash'' based on bad choices, is ignorant. At any given time, on any given day, any of us, could find our lives totally out of control. Yes, we need to take responsibility for our actions, but that doesnt exonerate me from showing compasson to those who just don't where to turn.

The real tragedy comes when someone loses his or her way completely, unable to find the right path back to well being. That is what addiction often does. It's very gripping.

...May I please come into your house and take five minutes of your time to tell you the good word about Humanism? *lol*

(February 28, 2014 at 1:40 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote:

(February 27, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: That's right.

Thing is, I believe we are inherently valuable. We don't suddenly gain more value, or lose our value based on what we do or don't do, if we walk a straight line all of our lives, or fuck up.

We have value, whether we choose a bad path here and there, or not. This notion that a person is ''filth,'' or ''trash'' based on bad choices, is ignorant. At any given time, on any given day, any of us, could find our lives totally out of control. Yes, we need to take responsibility for our actions, but that doesnt exonerate me from showing compasson to those who just don't where to turn.

The real tragedy comes when someone loses his or her way completely, unable to find the right path back to well being. That is what addiction often does. It's very gripping.

...May I please come into your house and take five minutes of your time to tell you the good word about Humanism? *lol*

haha

Why, it would be my pleasure to have you as my guest.

(February 28, 2014 at 8:59 am)Deidre32 Wrote:

(February 28, 2014 at 1:40 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: ...May I please come into your house and take five minutes of your time to tell you the good word about Humanism? *lol*

haha

Why, it would be my pleasure to have you as my guest.

Look up the American Humanist Association. Part of American Atheists. In a sense. If you don't know about 'em, look into them. You might like what you read.

[/proselytizing-

A proselytizing anti-theist? Say it ain't so.

Thank you Creed, I will definitely check it out!