(March 3, 2014 at 2:20 am)orangebox21 Wrote: The fundamental question remains, however, from an atheistic perspective and through the lens of evolution, given that people are just animals, why is an animal killing another animal wrong?

I object to your use of the phrase, 'just animals,' as if applying it to humans belittled them. Being an animal is one of the coolest conditions in the observed universe. Being an animal involves novelty and complexity seen nowhere else.
Why is an animal killing another animal wrong? Absolutely, it is not. Absolutely, killing humans is not wrong. It is only humans and their imaginary friends who consider killing humans wrong and then only most of the time. If it were absolutely wrong to kill humans, then bears would know this and refuse to kill children. Christians have to deny moral agency to non-humans in the face of observed fact. They do this to maintain a fantasy of human superiority.
Mothering of young, objection to unfairness, risk taking to benefit others are observed moral behaviors in non-humans. You claim such is instinct for others but not humans? You ask for special pleading.
Christians conflate 'absolute' morality with 'objective' morality. They fail to consider that an absolute morality would apply equally to humans, animals and inanimate objects.
Empathy involves the ability to consider the inner reality of individuals other than themselves. Christians recognize little suffering outside of their tribe and nearly none outside of their species.

(March 2, 2014 at 8:46 pm)Rahul Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 7:58 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Yeah it's in the thread Rahul. Elisha had da powaz already as a prophet, which gave him direct responsibility for them. He abused his powers to do evil. He was at fault.

Any powers that the biblical prophets ever used did not come from within them but was the "holy spirit" working through them. God can't shirk the responsibility for this story of slaughter.

Yes Elisha had powers granted to him.
He had earned trust. He abused it. He made a mistake. Of you kill a bunch of people in a bus queue in your car, is that Ford's fault?

(March 2, 2014 at 11:21 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: Only easier if you're an inept clown.

A truly intelligent deity would have gone for the moral option.

This still makes your god a total cunt.

If 'my God' had bears rip "42 sweet innocent little children" apart just for making fun of some bald guy, what will he do to people who curse Him directly? Or is that the problem? You see an unbending standard for what you think is the purest of the pure, and you know you do not compare... So again what awaits you if you go to God without attonement?

Hey there Drippy (I've really come to enjoy this moniker for you) allow me to interject:

Hypothetically speaking, since your god is imaginary; I would rather accept whatever unjust punishment your spitfuck of a god would dole out than worship such an evil cunt.

Any questions?

(March 2, 2014 at 11:25 pm)Zen Badger Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 11:21 pm)Drich Wrote: If 'my God' had bears rip "42 sweet innocent little children" apart just for making fun of some bald guy, what will he do to people who curse Him directly? Or is that the problem? You see an unbending standard for what you think is the purest of the pure, and you know you do not compare... So again what awaits you if you go to God without attonement?

So.... Threats of hell in place of an actual cognisant argument.

Par for the course really.

I just asked a question your the one who filled in the blanks with what you believe to know about Christianity.

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(March 2, 2014 at 11:22 pm)Bad Writer Wrote: Jeez, if your god was omnipotent and good, he would have just frozen those young men in their tracks before they could lay a hand on Elisha. No bears necessary.

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But there were bears, so that makes him a dick.

You seem to be confused as to who condemned these young men. God gave Elisha the power to do as he saw fit. The bears were just the vechical used to preserve the fear and respect Elisha needed to go before kings and armies and demand anything.

It was a different time and different people. Elisha needed to establish and maintain the God backed alpha persona so people would fear and listen to what he had to say. This could have been the difference between loosing these young men and whole cities of people.

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(March 2, 2014 at 11:32 pm)Bad Writer Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 11:21 pm)Drich Wrote: If 'my God' had bears rip "42 sweet innocent little children" apart just for making fun of some bald guy, what will he do to people who curse Him directly? Or is that the problem? You see an unbending standard for what you think is the purest of the pure, and you know you do not compare... So again what awaits you if you go to God without attonement?

I don't know, but here's a thought: let's figure out if there's a god first before we start doling out imaginary punishments.

What is their to figure out?

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(March 3, 2014 at 2:33 am)Cinjin Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 11:21 pm)Drich Wrote: If 'my God' had bears rip "42 sweet innocent little children" apart just for making fun of some bald guy, what will he do to people who curse Him directly? Or is that the problem? You see an unbending standard for what you think is the purest of the pure, and you know you do not compare... So again what awaits you if you go to God without attonement?

Drich, they don't know you like I do. Just tell 'em man ... tell 'em the "truth" as you've come to know it.


You see everybody, the reason why Drich doesn't give a shit is because he admitted to me two VERY important things:

#1 If his god does something, no matter what it is, it's automatically good and just. Sucks, but hey, that's the goodness of god - very dangerous.
#2 (and you can tell this one puts a smile on Drich's face) His god doesn't love you. That's right you heathen bastards, Drich's god doesn't love everyone and doesn't give a shit if you like it or not.

Anyway, I thought I'd help explain why Drich has no problem with this story.


Cheers

And here I thought you never listen.

(March 3, 2014 at 5:19 am)Aral Gamelon Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 11:21 pm)Drich Wrote: If 'my God' had bears rip "42 sweet innocent little children" apart just for making fun of some bald guy, what will he do to people who curse Him directly? Or is that the problem? You see an unbending standard for what you think is the purest of the pure, and you know you do not compare... So again what awaits you if you go to God without attonement?

Hey there Drippy (I've really come to enjoy this moniker for you) allow me to interject:

Hypothetically speaking, since your god is imaginary; I would rather accept whatever unjust punishment your spitfuck of a god would dole out than worship such an evil cunt.

Any questions?

Here's one.. If you don't care about the prospect of life after this one, then what makes you think I care for you? If you will note I did not address any of this to you. If you want to have that discussion I am open for it. If not, if you will simply remain silent I would not even know you exist.

Quote: God backed alpha persona so people would fear and listen to what he had to say. This could have been the difference between loosing these young men and whole cities of people.

So it was PR?!

(March 3, 2014 at 2:20 am)orangebox21 Wrote: The fundamental question remains, however, from an atheistic perspective and through the lens of evolution, given that people are just animals, why is an animal killing another animal wrong?

... Because the survival instinct of organisms is one of the fundamental drives of natural selection, and those that don't have those survival instincts and think being killed is good don't... survive, and get selected?

From an evolutionary perspective, those animals that don't think being killed is wrong tend to be the failed species.

Do you even think before you spout dopey creationist bilge?

Okay, let's say God gave Elisha power to do as he saw fit. Now we have an irresponsible prophet who is utterly sadistic, and an evil god that lets his sadistic prophets run amok. You're still not convincing anyone with your apologetics, Drich.

"What is [there] to figure out" about the existence of god, you ask? Should we simply assume that Thor exists, or that the angel Moroni really spoke to Joseph Smith, or should ask for evidence to back up these claims? But since none of these things have been verified, including the existence of Yahweh, we are taking the null hypothesis that these stories are simply fictional. Threatening us with hellfire doesn't scare anyone into joining your cult because we assume it's likely nonexistent.

(March 3, 2014 at 2:20 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Why assume that because a godly man does something it must be approved by God? There are times when men do things in the Bible, even godly men, that are firmly against the will of God. Here are some considerations. It resonates that "There is none righteous no not one" and "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It shows God's mercy and patience with men, "not wanting any to perish but all to come to eternal life." It gives greater glory to Jesus Christ who's perfect life has become the atoning sacrifice for each one of us. and to those of us who are "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

So, God, in his infinite wisdom, gave some guy superpowers knowing full well he would use it to rip a crowd of children to pieces with bears?

(March 3, 2014 at 2:20 am)orangebox21 Wrote: The fundamental question remains, however, from an atheistic perspective and through the lens of evolution, given that people are just animals, why is an animal killing another animal wrong?

That's funny, because this only seems to be a problem for atheists in theists' heads.

(March 3, 2014 at 4:48 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Yes Elisha had powers granted to him.
He had earned trust. He abused it. He made a mistake. Of you kill a bunch of people in a bus queue in your car, is that Ford's fault?

If Ford knew it was going to happen and gave it to him anyway, yes.