From a philosophical point of view, disregarding the anthropomorphic gods of legend, I think the question of "god" in the broadest sense (at which point I'd prefer to drop the whole term "god" from our vocabulary completely) comes down to this:

Does a conscious observer emerge from a self-organizing reality or does a self-organizing reality emerge from a conscious observer?

Self-organizing implies a misleading amount of intent.

There's an innate bias imbedded in consciousness that interprets everything experienced in self-important terms of consciousness.

Early forms of religion interpreted an unexplained death or famine as a direct reaction from gods or spirits that were offended: Humans are not only prone to anthropomorphic explanations of events, but incredibly self-important.

Even earlier forms of religion like animism assume the consciousness of objects there is no good reason to attribute it to, like rocks and trees.

Consciousness is not only the ability to interpret the world, it's the ability for intense self-importance and self-delusion.

I don't disagree but on one level what else could conscious observers even care about beyond their own perceptions? Whatever "objective reality" is, all we're ever going to able to conceive is that which our consciousness allows.

I don't think my post implied self-importance but rather attempted to express the deeper philosophical presumptions that at some point we all make.

Self-organization is nothing mystical, it's a scientifically verified principle about reality's onion. The question that eludes everyone is what role consciousness plays in our perception/conception of the Universe.

Neither. There's nothing to ''observe.''

God is created from the minds of those who hope for a Creator to explain the things that mankind can't yet explain itself. We are not comfortable with the phrase, 'I don't know.' So, we create a 'God of the gaps,' so to speak.

There's nothing wrong with gaps. If God exists, he will fill them in, without us having to do so.

Just my 2 cents

(March 9, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Neither. There's nothing to ''observe.''

God is created from the minds of those who hope for a Creator to explain the things that mankind can't yet explain itself. We are not comfortable with the phrase, 'I don't know.' So, we create a 'God of the gaps,' so to speak.

There's nothing wrong with gaps. If God exists, he will fill them in, without us having to do so.

Just my 2 cents

Yes but I'm saying let's suspend the idea of God as he (it) is typically conceived by religion. I'm happy with just calling the higher powers that be what they are--universal laws, nature, etc.

Even from that, in just discussing nature, we still have these questions about reality that basically assume we are consciously observing "things" out there, "objects" composed of innumerable atoms and even smaller components. But what are objects? Has the self-organization of atoms brought forth beings that can understand themselves...or have our conscious minds sprung forth or evolved in some fundamentally unknowable way so that our perceptions are themselves responsible for this apparent cohesion, self-organization, of everything that we observe? No reason to invoke a deity, though I see this as really just a surface level manner of speaking about this greater mystery underlying our existence. Matter and energy operates through mechanistic laws to produce beings, composed entirely of the same materials as everything else in the Universe, that can observe and reflect on everything else, including themselves. Are you saying observation, that is, all we perceive, is an illusion?

(March 9, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Does a conscious observer emerge from a self-organizing reality or does a self-organizing reality emerge from a conscious observer?

Definitely yes to the first choice. Yes, each one of us emerges as a conscious observer without any assistance. Likewise our bodies (including brains) assemble themselves without the assistance of any external agency.

Of course we're not only observers. We are also agents with the apparent ability to make choices and carry out intentions.

So it would seem to me that reality is entirely self organizing. I just don't see the appeal of invoking a greater conscious observer/agent who has arbitrarily chosen to create a self-organizing reality.

I don't think cosmology origins is seriously addressed in theology. Theology makes reference to it regarding purpose but that's really as far as it goes.

(March 9, 2014 at 5:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I don't think cosmology origins is seriously addressed in theology. Theology makes reference to it regarding purpose but that's really as far as it goes.

Or at least as far as it should go.

(March 9, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: From a philosophical point of view, disregarding the anthropomorphic gods of legend, I think the question of "god" in the broadest sense (at which point I'd prefer to drop the whole term "god" from our vocabulary completely) comes down to this:

Does a conscious observer emerge from a self-organizing reality or does a self-organizing reality emerge from a conscious observer?

I don't think it comes down to just this question, although it can. For example, if it was possible for conscious observers to emerge from a self-organizing reality, we would not necessarily know it did. So while we can discover it's possible, we may not discover it did. Then there comes other ways of knowing aside from this question. The self organizing reality emerging from an conscious observer maybe a possibility or it maybe that reality needs a constant act of creation. That the small units in the universe are being constantly created and the laws are constantly being put in place to maintain the universe by a higher power and that an independent universe is impossible to be created.

If reality is entirely self-organizing, then you should agree that our own consciousness is not separate but that it is already embedded within the total, unified self-organizing system and therefore it is not confined to our brains only (nor any particular region of space, for that matter). Consciousness would not be something "emergent" in the universe, but rather inherent.

And if that is not so, then there has to be an external agent. But either way, you can't eliminate consciousness as being the initial/fundamental state of reality.

I posted plenty more thoughts on this topic in my Order vs. Randomness thread.