If God can't create life without introducing evil, that doesn't say much about his omni-qualities. I would prefer a more competent deity.

Quote:Not free from Gods POV. Why are you not free from your POV? You're conflating two different perspectives making your summary fallacious.

That's the point.
In your world god is gonna judge me. Yet from his point of view I'm not free. So how can HE judge me if I'm not free from where he's sitting?
Btw the fact that he is omniscient AND omnipotent means he could prevent every evil that ever happened cause he knew everything that will happen and knew how to prevent it. Which brings us back to epicurian paradox.

(April 1, 2014 at 4:57 pm)tor Wrote:

Quote:Not free from Gods POV. Why are you not free from your POV? You're conflating two different perspectives making your summary fallacious.

That's the point.
In your world god is gonna judge me. Yet from his point of view I'm not free. So how can HE judge me if I'm not free from where he's sitting?
Btw the fact that he is omniscient AND omnipotent means he could prevent every evil that ever happened cause he knew everything that will happen and knew how to prevent it. Which brings us back to epicurian paradox.

God judges you on what you did, the same as he judges everyone. You made your choices and you're judged for them. He didn't make any choices for you.

You're failing badly at seeing the logic here.

From Gods POV, you are free. He sees your entire timeline from anywhere he wants, from the beginning, the end, at any moment or all at once... that's what omniscience grants. He knows all that you did and are going to do, and all the choices that you make.

You as a time bound being are trapped by your physiology and influences. You are free to act as your conditioning dictates. Whatever words come into your mind, that then find themselves typed, you were free to form.

The epicurean paradox is meaningless psychobabble.

(April 1, 2014 at 5:38 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(April 1, 2014 at 4:57 pm)tor Wrote: That's the point.
In your world god is gonna judge me. Yet from his point of view I'm not free. So how can HE judge me if I'm not free from where he's sitting?
Btw the fact that he is omniscient AND omnipotent means he could prevent every evil that ever happened cause he knew everything that will happen and knew how to prevent it. Which brings us back to epicurian paradox.

God judges you on what you did, the same as he judges everyone. You made your choices and you're judged for them. He didn't make any choices for you.

You're failing badly at seeing the logic here.

From Gods POV, you are free. He sees your entire timeline from anywhere he wants, from the beginning, the end, at any moment or all at once... that's what omniscience grants. He knows all that you did and are going to do, and all the choices that you make.

You as a time bound being are trapped by your physiology and influences. You are free to act as your conditioning dictates. Whatever words come into your mind, that then find themselves typed, you were free to form.

The epicurean paradox is meaningless psychobabble.

Ur right... everything u just said ..minus the god character. .

Quote:This omniscience thing is pretty straight forward. If god knows I will do X I can't not do X. I see no flaw in the argument.

Not only can you not do X, you can't even do 'not X'.

Boru

(April 1, 2014 at 5:38 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God judges you on what you did, the same as he judges everyone. You made your choices and you're judged for them. He didn't make any choices for you.

You're failing badly at seeing the logic here.

There isn't a strong enough microscope.

Quote:From Gods POV, you are free. He sees your entire timeline from anywhere he wants, from the beginning, the end, at any moment or all at once... that's what omniscience grants. He knows all that you did and are going to do, and all the choices that you make.

You as a time bound being are trapped by your physiology and influences. You are free to act as your conditioning dictates. Whatever words come into your mind, that then find themselves typed, you were free to form.

If God knows that the decisions will be made in a certain way, then it's predestination, and he's just not actively guiding the flow of events. It amounts to the same thing.

Quote:The epicurean paradox is meaningless psychobabble.

The shit Christians need to tell themselves to believe that they're not followers of a brutal and evil despot.

(April 1, 2014 at 5:38 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(April 1, 2014 at 4:57 pm)tor Wrote: That's the point.
In your world god is gonna judge me. Yet from his point of view I'm not free. So how can HE judge me if I'm not free from where he's sitting?
Btw the fact that he is omniscient AND omnipotent means he could prevent every evil that ever happened cause he knew everything that will happen and knew how to prevent it. Which brings us back to epicurian paradox.

God judges you on what you did, the same as he judges everyone. You made your choices and you're judged for them. He didn't make any choices for you.

You're failing badly at seeing the logic here.

From Gods POV, you are free. He sees your entire timeline from anywhere he wants, from the beginning, the end, at any moment or all at once... that's what omniscience grants. He knows all that you did and are going to do, and all the choices that you make.

You as a time bound being are trapped by your physiology and influences. You are free to act as your conditioning dictates. Whatever words come into your mind, that then find themselves typed, you were free to form.

The epicurean paradox is meaningless psychobabble.

No no no. From MY point of view I am free. From gods point of view I can't avoid to choose what I will choose in future. So how can he judge me for something I can't avoid?

Quote:From Gods POV, you are free. He sees your entire timeline from anywhere he wants, from the beginning, the end, at any moment or all at once... that's what omniscience grants. He knows all that you did and are going to do, and all the choices that you make.

I'm curious as to how you reconcile that with the notions of God loving us and wanting us to be with him.

If God knows, and always has known, all the choices I've ever made and am ever going to make, then he knows that these choices will, according to traditional views, condemn me to an eternity of suffering. It isn't just me: God has known of the horrific fate of billions of human beings around the globe and across history. In fact, God has known of the suffering of these people since the instantiation of time (again, in the traditionalist views).

The questions naturally arise: If God loves us, why does he allow us to be born into a life of suffering? If God wants us to be with him, why does he allow the creation of Beings he knows will be punished forever?

As God is omniscient, then there isn't a thing I can do to save myself. I'm not so constituted (apparently) to suddenly convert to any one faith - God knows - and always has known - that I will never convert, never repent, never be saved. Since God created everything, he must also have created the choices I made that made me what I am.

Where is the free will?

Boru

(April 1, 2014 at 6:22 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:From Gods POV, you are free. He sees your entire timeline from anywhere he wants, from the beginning, the end, at any moment or all at once... that's what omniscience grants. He knows all that you did and are going to do, and all the choices that you make.

I'm curious as to how you reconcile that with the notions of God loving us and wanting us to be with him.

If God knows, and always has known, all the choices I've ever made and am ever going to make, then he knows that these choices will, according to traditional views, condemn me to an eternity of suffering. It isn't just me: God has known of the horrific fate of billions of human beings around the globe and across history. In fact, God has known of the suffering of these people since the instantiation of time (again, in the traditionalist views).

The questions naturally arise: If God loves us, why does he allow us to be born into a life of suffering? If God wants us to be with him, why does he allow the creation of Beings he knows will be punished forever?

As God is omniscient, then there isn't a thing I can do to save myself. I'm not so constituted (apparently) to suddenly convert to any one faith - God knows - and always has known - that I will never convert, never repent, never be saved. Since God created everything, he must also have created the choices I made that made me what I am.

Where is the free will?

Boru

Is all about free willy

Quote:Is all about free willy

I wouldn't know about that. My willy is a devotee of determinism.

Boru