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Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
#1
Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
Free will does not exist, because it can not exist; the conversation laws prohibit it, which means that what applies to the rest of the Universe also applies to your brain, which is the origin of your mind.

That's settled, and this thread is not about "arguing" over this fundamental fact.  Now, having said that, some are unhappy, because it means that human beings or even non-human animals are not fundamentally responsible for their actions.  BUT, the "materialistic string" pulls both ways, because, if you take a human infant and endlessly love that baby, care for him/her as much as possible meeting all of their physical, emotional, nutritional, health, educational, mental, psychological, social and other needs, etc., are "firm but fair" in expectations and discipline, never exposing the child to any sort of physical violence and/or punishments, embracing extended family, friends and community as much as possible, etc., THEN, the child will have NO choice but to grow-up in a loving, nurturing and caring home and will have NO choice but to be a good, loving, kind and caring individual, and a productive member of the society in which he/she lives.

That child will lack free will but will have no choice but to be a good and loving person; their neural circuits will be well-formed and they will not be able to behave otherwise.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#2
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
Thanks for not being pessimistic about it.

I dislike when people turn towards a negative side instantly "Well then I might aswell do nothing because I'll have no choice".
Makes no sense imo. They're just using it as an excuse to be lazy etc.
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#3
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
(April 3, 2016 at 8:37 am)RozKek Wrote: Thanks for not being pessimistic about it.

I dislike when people turn towards a negative side instantly "Well then I might aswell do nothing because I'll have no choice".
Makes no sense imo. They're just using it as an excuse to be lazy etc.

Good parenting responds to this -- setting expectations for the kiddo, encouragement, showing by good example, rewards (personal and financial), etc.

Do deadbeats have "free will"?  No, of course not, but neither do industrious persons, either.  Does anyone here in the workforce think that you have a choice as to whether you want to get out of bed and go to work, or just stay home and watch TV?  No, absolutely not; going to work is not a choice.  You have to go, and there is no alternative but to go and to do the very best job that you can.  I could not "choose" go to work any more than I could "choose" to stick my hand in a garbage disposal, turning it on.  Just as my neural circuits prevent the latter, so, too, they compel the former.  It just not matter at all whether I "feel" like going to work; I must go to work.  My entire life depends on going to work, and so, I go, and I have no choice in the matter.  My brain compels me to go, whether I "want" to or not.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#4
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
(April 3, 2016 at 9:21 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(April 3, 2016 at 8:37 am)RozKek Wrote: Thanks for not being pessimistic about it.

I dislike when people turn towards a negative side instantly "Well then I might aswell do nothing because I'll have no choice".
Makes no sense imo. They're just using it as an excuse to be lazy etc.

Good parenting responds to this -- setting expectations for the kiddo, encouragement, showing by good example, rewards (personal and financial), etc.

Do deadbeats have "free will"?  No, of course not, but neither do industrious persons, either.  Does anyone here in the workforce think that you have a choice as to whether you want to get out of bed and go to work, or just stay home and watch TV?  No, absolutely not; going to work is not a choice.  You have to go, and there is no alternative but to go and to do the very best job that you can.  I could not "choose" go to work any more than I could "choose" to stick my hand in a garbage disposal, turning it on.  Just as my neural circuits prevent the latter, so, too, they compel the former.  It just not matter at all whether I "feel" like going to work; I must go to work.  My entire life depends on going to work, and so, I go, and I have no choice in the matter.  My brain compels me to go, whether I "want" to or not.

Even without realizing it we've always lived as if we had no free will.
Hey, you got a headache? Take this pill.
You can't think properly and your decision making is bad? Maybe you haven't gotten enough sleep.
You have problems and/or mental issues? Take these drugs and get a therapist

Those are a few examples of how we're affected by external stimuli and we're just responding to the environment. 

I myself don't know if free will exists or not, but my bets are on that it doesn't exist based on our current scientific knowledge. And I don't believe that the universe is deterministic if it matters.
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#5
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
I have free will, too bad you don't.
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#6
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
(April 3, 2016 at 10:14 am)pool the great Wrote: I have free will, too bad you don't.

Too bad to what? It has made no difference in my life.
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#7
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
(April 3, 2016 at 10:39 am)RozKek Wrote:
(April 3, 2016 at 10:14 am)pool the great Wrote: I have free will, too bad you don't.

Too bad to what? It has made no difference in my life.

It made a huge difference in my life.
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#8
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
(April 3, 2016 at 10:14 am)pool the great Wrote: I have free will, too bad you don't.

You don't, either; if a surgeon would make a lesion in your brain, dividing your two hemispheres, you would be a completely different individual and would act and behave completely differently.  Innumerable, related examples exist of this.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#9
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
Then I guess it's a good thing I haven't undertaken that surgery so that I still poses my free will.
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#10
RE: Free Will -- the "materialist string" pulls both ways.
(April 3, 2016 at 11:02 am)pool the great Wrote: Then I guess it's a good thing I haven't undertaken that surgery so that I still poses my free will.

I didn't post this thread to argue that, rather, my point is that people like you are good people and that you have no choice but to be good.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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