And to think people believe this crap... this god that knows everything, can do anything, after creating us, figures out ...hey, this isnt working out. So he floods the world, killing everything, then see that we r up to no good again and Decides to kill someone ( or himself)(however the fuck it goes).. to solve this problem..

(April 12, 2014 at 7:04 am)Tonus Wrote:

(April 11, 2014 at 11:36 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Understand. But, why is it essential for Christians to perpetuate this myth that evolution is a falsehood?

Because it's what they are taught and they are certain that it makes no sense, and that the only way that anyone else believes it is because they are ignorant or mislead. Anytime I see the arguments against evolution I can easily see my former self making them and finding zero objections among my religious colleagues of any faith. That it seems to be such a universal attitude among people of varying faiths and denominations makes it that much more of a certainty for them.

It may be one of the most effective bubbles I've ever experienced from the inside and seen from the outside. Lacking (or simply not accepting) the understanding of evolution works and how time scales factor in makes the idea of macro-evolution easy to dismiss and extremely difficult to even consider.

Always having been on the outside it seems mind-boggling to me that people are really unable to see the blatant dishonesty of creationism. Every single one of the prominent creation dope-pushers is a shameless liar and obviously so.

As Aron Ra has said many time, to paraphrase, that there comes a time in a creationists' education and life experience when they are faced with the question-- "Do you want to be a creationist or do you want to be honest?"

I suspect that those who remain creationists after that point of education and knowledge just really don't care about whether something is true or false. The doctrine must come first no matter what.

(April 12, 2014 at 11:28 am)Godlesspanther Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 7:04 am)Tonus Wrote: Because it's what they are taught and they are certain that it makes no sense, and that the only way that anyone else believes it is because they are ignorant or mislead. Anytime I see the arguments against evolution I can easily see my former self making them and finding zero objections among my religious colleagues of any faith. That it seems to be such a universal attitude among people of varying faiths and denominations makes it that much more of a certainty for them.

It may be one of the most effective bubbles I've ever experienced from the inside and seen from the outside. Lacking (or simply not accepting) the understanding of evolution works and how time scales factor in makes the idea of macro-evolution easy to dismiss and extremely difficult to even consider.

Always having been on the outside it seems mind-boggling to me that people are really unable to see the blatant dishonesty of creationism. Every single one of the prominent creation dope-pushers is a shameless liar and obviously so.

As Aron Ra has said many time, to paraphrase, that there comes a time in a creationists' education and life experience when they are faced with the question-- "Do you want to be a creationist or do you want to be honest?"

I suspect that those who remain creationists after that point of education and knowledge just really don't care about whether something is true or false. The doctrine must come first no matter what.

Actually - the 7 largest xtian sects - representing over 75% of the worlds xtians - accept that evolution happened - although they disagree on the origin of initial "life". It is a relatively few sects that require the absolute belief in the inerrancy of the bible - down to Adam and Eve - and it can be shown that few of those actually believe the creation stories of the bible anyway.

Religion knows that they cannot enforce beliefs that disagree with proven reality - and the end result of trying to do so is to alienate the next generation.

The problem is that religion was the center of the culture of many of the older people of the world - regardless of which religion or sub-religion they believed in. And it is only now that the older generation of complete believers is actually dying off. Studies have already shown that a majority of the young people do not believe in creation - and even in religion itself - but put on a front to sidestep family problems - knowing that eventually that problem will go away. And these young people have no intention of following religion once they have less family problems with it.

But for most who otherwise still believe in an afterlife and a god - even if their beliefs do not accept the whole of their religion - it is largely a belief that there must be something more than just our life here on earth. There has to be a "better" place to go to afterwards. And the priests of religion are only eager to take those people's money and say whatever is needed to keep the cash cow alive.

Still - religion is waning in the educated areas of the world. Studies have shown it is heading toward extinction in several European countries - plus Australia. The problem for religion is money. While religion is still spreading among the third world countries where belief in superstition is still rampant and education is still poor - the problem is that these countries cannot support the religions monetarily. While the Xtian religions have largely survived on Western and USA money - as the aging population of believers dwindles - there is no new source for money - and that is why there are so many closed churches. Add a shortage of clergy too.

Science and education - and reality - have worked to prove that religion is a thing of the past.

(April 12, 2014 at 10:12 am)Tonus Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 7:31 am)whateverist Wrote: I find your perspective fascinating. Do you have a thread already in which you've shared your deconversion process? Also I would be interested to know which faithbrand you formerly held and, if you don't mind, where you are from. I'm thinking you might actually have left the Jehovah's Witnesses?

I don't think I've made a thread on that, at least not with much in the way of details. I should, since it's a good exercise IMO. But yes, I left the JWs (not formally, as they still consider me a member, if not in good standing). I've lived my whole life in the Bronx, but am about a year away from a permanent move to Ohio.

Well you inspired me to find out at what age we de-converted by starting a poll. I imagine it has been done before but I'm interested to know what the norms are. I knew we had some folks on here who had never been raised in a religion but I've been surprised (but not at all disappointed) to see just how prevalent that is.

(April 12, 2014 at 11:50 am)ThomM Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:28 am)Godlesspanther Wrote: Always having been on the outside it seems mind-boggling to me that people are really unable to see the blatant dishonesty of creationism. Every single one of the prominent creation dope-pushers is a shameless liar and obviously so.

As Aron Ra has said many time, to paraphrase, that there comes a time in a creationists' education and life experience when they are faced with the question-- "Do you want to be a creationist or do you want to be honest?"

I suspect that those who remain creationists after that point of education and knowledge just really don't care about whether something is true or false. The doctrine must come first no matter what.

Actually - the 7 largest xtian sects - representing over 75% of the worlds xtians - accept that evolution happened - although they disagree on the origin of initial "life". It is a relatively few sects that require the absolute belief in the inerrancy of the bible - down to Adam and Eve - and it can be shown that few of those actually believe the creation stories of the bible anyway.

Since evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life, they fully support evolution and merely reject abiogenesis.

(April 12, 2014 at 4:15 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Since evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life, they fully support evolution and merely reject abiogenesis.

I think that most of them accept "micro-evolution" because it's very difficult to deny that it happens. They just separate it from "macro-evolution" and treat them as two different things.

(April 11, 2014 at 11:06 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(April 11, 2014 at 10:02 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: Give me time to prepare my arguments.

Let me give you a little friendly advice.

If you're planning on using material from Answers in Genesis, The Institute for Creation Research and the like, as many evolution detractors do, there's a few things you should be aware of.

1. We've seen all of it, and to put it lightly: they are unconvincing.

2. If you use said material without a decent understanding of what the mainstream scientific consensus actually is regarding evolution, you're going to end up looking foolish in the eyes of those you'd seek to convince.

3. Educate yourself on the recent evidence gathered through DNA sequencing, particularly the implications of endogenous retrovirus insertions in DNA. This is some of the most compelling evidence for common ancestry, and I guarantee it will come up.

Thank you for your advice but I will need to use resources.

---

(April 12, 2014 at 12:47 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(April 11, 2014 at 11:40 pm)tor Wrote: Because it fucks up genesis. Adam and Eve are bullshit etc. Men are not different from animals. Were not made in gods image etc.

Yeah, it's only a problem for those that insist on reading Genesis literally. Why they insist on doing so is a mystery to me. So much of Genesis reads as ancient mythology and just-so storytelling.

I recommend you go watch the movie, "God Is Not Dead" I saw it today and it was very moving.

---

(April 11, 2014 at 9:52 am)Esquilax Wrote: I will remind you Rev, ahead of such a thread, that continuing to misrepresent what evolution is, and what the scientific body of evidence in favor of it is, would be entirely dishonest since you've been prompted to see the truth in this regard, and that starting a new thread to make more claims that you've already been corrected on will result in a very thorough debunking, not only of the claims themselves, but also of your profoundly un-christian attitude in bringing them up.

thank you for your statement

---

(April 12, 2014 at 11:28 am)Godlesspanther Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 7:04 am)Tonus Wrote: Because it's what they are taught and they are certain that it makes no sense, and that the only way that anyone else believes it is because they are ignorant or mislead. Anytime I see the arguments against evolution I can easily see my former self making them and finding zero objections among my religious colleagues of any faith. That it seems to be such a universal attitude among people of varying faiths and denominations makes it that much more of a certainty for them.

It may be one of the most effective bubbles I've ever experienced from the inside and seen from the outside. Lacking (or simply not accepting) the understanding of evolution works and how time scales factor in makes the idea of macro-evolution easy to dismiss and extremely difficult to even consider.

Always having been on the outside it seems mind-boggling to me that people are really unable to see the blatant dishonesty of creationism. Every single one of the prominent creation dope-pushers is a shameless liar and obviously so.

As Aron Ra has said many time, to paraphrase, that there comes a time in a creationists' education and life experience when they are faced with the question-- "Do you want to be a creationist or do you want to be honest?"

I suspect that those who remain creationists after that point of education and knowledge just really don't care about whether something is true or false. The doctrine must come first no matter what.

Creationist are being honest.

---

(April 12, 2014 at 12:47 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(April 11, 2014 at 11:40 pm)tor Wrote: Because it fucks up genesis. Adam and Eve are bullshit etc. Men are not different from animals. Were not made in gods image etc.

Yeah, it's only a problem for those that insist on reading Genesis literally. Why they insist on doing so is a mystery to me. So much of Genesis reads as ancient mythology and just-so storytelling.

Genesis is foundational

---

(April 12, 2014 at 11:50 am)ThomM Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:28 am)Godlesspanther Wrote: Always having been on the outside it seems mind-boggling to me that people are really unable to see the blatant dishonesty of creationism. Every single one of the prominent creation dope-pushers is a shameless liar and obviously so.

As Aron Ra has said many time, to paraphrase, that there comes a time in a creationists' education and life experience when they are faced with the question-- "Do you want to be a creationist or do you want to be honest?"

I suspect that those who remain creationists after that point of education and knowledge just really don't care about whether something is true or false. The doctrine must come first no matter what.

Actually - the 7 largest xtian sects - representing over 75% of the worlds xtians - accept that evolution happened - although they disagree on the origin of initial "life". It is a relatively few sects that require the absolute belief in the inerrancy of the bible - down to Adam and Eve - and it can be shown that few of those actually believe the creation stories of the bible anyway.

Religion knows that they cannot enforce beliefs that disagree with proven reality - and the end result of trying to do so is to alienate the next generation.

The problem is that religion was the center of the culture of many of the older people of the world - regardless of which religion or sub-religion they believed in. And it is only now that the older generation of complete believers is actually dying off. Studies have already shown that a majority of the young people do not believe in creation - and even in religion itself - but put on a front to sidestep family problems - knowing that eventually that problem will go away. And these young people have no intention of following religion once they have less family problems with it.

But for most who otherwise still believe in an afterlife and a god - even if their beliefs do not accept the whole of their religion - it is largely a belief that there must be something more than just our life here on earth. There has to be a "better" place to go to afterwards. And the priests of religion are only eager to take those people's money and say whatever is needed to keep the cash cow alive.

Still - religion is waning in the educated areas of the world. Studies have shown it is heading toward extinction in several European countries - plus Australia. The problem for religion is money. While religion is still spreading among the third world countries where belief in superstition is still rampant and education is still poor - the problem is that these countries cannot support the religions monetarily. While the Xtian religions have largely survived on Western and USA money - as the aging population of believers dwindles - there is no new source for money - and that is why there are so many closed churches. Add a shortage of clergy too.

Science and education - and reality - have worked to prove that religion is a thing of the past.

I respectfully disagree. We need to go to the author of life to gain insight into His creation.

(April 12, 2014 at 8:07 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: I recommend you go watch the movie, "God Is Not Dead" I saw it today and it was very moving.

That movie is one giant, fallacious, stereotypical Christian joke and not a particularly funny one either. The fact that you found it "very moving" says a lot about you.

(April 12, 2014 at 8:07 pm)Revelation777 Wrote:

---

(April 11, 2014 at 11:06 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Let me give you a little friendly advice.

If you're planning on using material from Answers in Genesis, The Institute for Creation Research and the like, as many evolution detractors do, there's a few things you should be aware of.

1. We've seen all of it, and to put it lightly: they are unconvincing.

2. If you use said material without a decent understanding of what the mainstream scientific consensus actually is regarding evolution, you're going to end up looking foolish in the eyes of those you'd seek to convince.

3. Educate yourself on the recent evidence gathered through DNA sequencing, particularly the implications of endogenous retrovirus insertions in DNA. This is some of the most compelling evidence for common ancestry, and I guarantee it will come up.

Thank you for your advice but I will need to use resources.

---

(April 12, 2014 at 12:47 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Yeah, it's only a problem for those that insist on reading Genesis literally. Why they insist on doing so is a mystery to me. So much of Genesis reads as ancient mythology and just-so storytelling.

I recommend you go watch the movie, "God Is Not Dead" I saw it today and it was very moving.

---

(April 11, 2014 at 9:52 am)Esquilax Wrote: I will remind you Rev, ahead of such a thread, that continuing to misrepresent what evolution is, and what the scientific body of evidence in favor of it is, would be entirely dishonest since you've been prompted to see the truth in this regard, and that starting a new thread to make more claims that you've already been corrected on will result in a very thorough debunking, not only of the claims themselves, but also of your profoundly un-christian attitude in bringing them up.

thank you for your statement

---

(April 12, 2014 at 11:28 am)Godlesspanther Wrote: Always having been on the outside it seems mind-boggling to me that people are really unable to see the blatant dishonesty of creationism. Every single one of the prominent creation dope-pushers is a shameless liar and obviously so.

As Aron Ra has said many time, to paraphrase, that there comes a time in a creationists' education and life experience when they are faced with the question-- "Do you want to be a creationist or do you want to be honest?"

I suspect that those who remain creationists after that point of education and knowledge just really don't care about whether something is true or false. The doctrine must come first no matter what.

Creationist are being honest.

---

(April 12, 2014 at 12:47 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Yeah, it's only a problem for those that insist on reading Genesis literally. Why they insist on doing so is a mystery to me. So much of Genesis reads as ancient mythology and just-so storytelling.

Genesis is foundational

---

(April 12, 2014 at 11:50 am)ThomM Wrote: Actually - the 7 largest xtian sects - representing over 75% of the worlds xtians - accept that evolution happened - although they disagree on the origin of initial "life". It is a relatively few sects that require the absolute belief in the inerrancy of the bible - down to Adam and Eve - and it can be shown that few of those actually believe the creation stories of the bible anyway.

Religion knows that they cannot enforce beliefs that disagree with proven reality - and the end result of trying to do so is to alienate the next generation.

The problem is that religion was the center of the culture of many of the older people of the world - regardless of which religion or sub-religion they believed in. And it is only now that the older generation of complete believers is actually dying off. Studies have already shown that a majority of the young people do not believe in creation - and even in religion itself - but put on a front to sidestep family problems - knowing that eventually that problem will go away. And these young people have no intention of following religion once they have less family problems with it.

But for most who otherwise still believe in an afterlife and a god - even if their beliefs do not accept the whole of their religion - it is largely a belief that there must be something more than just our life here on earth. There has to be a "better" place to go to afterwards. And the priests of religion are only eager to take those people's money and say whatever is needed to keep the cash cow alive.

Still - religion is waning in the educated areas of the world. Studies have shown it is heading toward extinction in several European countries - plus Australia. The problem for religion is money. While religion is still spreading among the third world countries where belief in superstition is still rampant and education is still poor - the problem is that these countries cannot support the religions monetarily. While the Xtian religions have largely survived on Western and USA money - as the aging population of believers dwindles - there is no new source for money - and that is why there are so many closed churches. Add a shortage of clergy too.

Science and education - and reality - have worked to prove that religion is a thing of the past.

I respectfully disagree. We need to go to the author of life to gain insight into His creation.

---

One line answers unsatisfactory.

But isn't that what we've come to expect from Rev? Not the mention a lot of other Xtians that come here.