Being raised as a good Lutheran, I was told that the only way you can accept God is through the Holy Spirit. He enables you to embrace God... because. It was never really explained to me why this matters.

One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.


On a related note, if the Holy Spirit is necessary for this, why did Jesus and the disciples perform all those miracles? The Bible states more than once that they performed miracles so that people would believe:

John 4:48

Quote:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see [a]signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.

Mark 16:20

Quote:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

So, which is it? The Holy Spirit alone, or do we need signs and wonders to believe? If it's the former, why all the miracles? If it's the latter, why did all the miracles suddenly stop? The only "miracles" we see now are just random personal experiences people have that feel miraculous (surviving cancer or seeing their baby for the first time), which are... a far cry from walking on water and transmutation.

A damn good argument. I was gonna try to play Devil's advocate...but I don't have much lol.

Quote:Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?

Why it can't be both?

After all many of us find the concept of the Holy Trinity absurd for more than just one reason.

(April 22, 2014 at 10:17 am)ThePinsir Wrote: A damn good argument. I was gonna try to play Devil's advocate...but I don't have much lol.

This was one of the first things that troubled me, back when I believed. I used to feel lucky for being born in the country that worshiped the right god.

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(April 22, 2014 at 1:34 pm)Zid Wrote:

Quote:Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?

Why it can't be both?

After all many of us find the concept of the Holy Trinity absurd for more than just one reason.

That's in inclusive or, not an exclusive or. It can be both.

(April 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(April 22, 2014 at 10:17 am)ThePinsir Wrote: A damn good argument. I was gonna try to play Devil's advocate...but I don't have much lol.

This was one of the first things that troubled me, back when I believed. I used to feel lucky for being born in the country that worshiped the right god.

Shame on u poopee pants for believing that crap..

Hmmmm,

Lutherans, Lutherans, Lutherans

not too knowledgeable about them, although the local franchise in my area is not big on ecumenism. Seems like nationally they have backed off some of Luther's more, um, vivid pronouncements too.

Appreciate the topic, so much to learn . . .

(April 22, 2014 at 1:37 pm)truthBtold Wrote:

(April 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: This was one of the first things that troubled me, back when I believed. I used to feel lucky for being born in the country that worshiped the right god.

Shame on u poopee pants for believing that crap..

I got better. All's well that ends well, right? :p

(April 22, 2014 at 1:44 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Hmmmm,

Lutherans, Lutherans, Lutherans

not too knowledgeable about them, although the local franchise in my area is not big on ecumenism. Seems like nationally they have backed off some of Luther's more, um, vivid pronouncements too.

They believe in double predestination, which, as far as I can tell is an attempt to have your cake and eat it too with the Calvinist approach on predestination.

Other than that, it's basically Protestantism with a lot of Catholic trappings and leanings. I think it's the only Protestant denomination to use the Catholic version of the ten commandments. It really weirded me out to see the lists numbered differently in other media, because it's not like they told us that there is more than one list, or that the list is presented differently in multiple parts of the Bible, or that there are never ten commandments explicitly listed in the Bible.

Ugh. I'm getting off topic.

(April 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: This was one of the first things that troubled me, back when I believed. I used to feel lucky for being born in the country that worshiped the right god.

Nothing a bit of racist stereotyping can't cure.

To quote the rather wonderful jesus-is-saviour.com:

" What percentage of people do you believe are truly saved? If you say "ALL," then you are obviously NOT a believer. 1st John 2:22 teaches that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is a LIAR. That means all Islamic Muslims are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus ever died on a cross. There are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims in the world.

All followers of Judaism are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. That's what the Bible teaches in 1st John 2:22. It's Jesus or Hell.

The question is: Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? I do. By the way, the King James Bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan. "

(April 22, 2014 at 2:35 pm)FreeTony Wrote:

(April 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: This was one of the first things that troubled me, back when I believed. I used to feel lucky for being born in the country that worshiped the right god.

Nothing a bit of racist stereotyping can't cure.

To quote the rather wonderful jesus-is-saviour.com:

" What percentage of people do you believe are truly saved? If you say "ALL," then you are obviously NOT a believer. 1st John 2:22 teaches that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is a LIAR. That means all Islamic Muslims are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus ever died on a cross. There are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims in the world.

All followers of Judaism are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. That's what the Bible teaches in 1st John 2:22. It's Jesus or Hell.

The question is: Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? I do. By the way, the King James Bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan. "

Ummm, the king james bible is not inerrent at all and far worse then other translations in terms of errors, infact these days most bible scholar or clergy with half a brain will recommend The new amercian standard bible, although some will would also recommend the niv bible being that its more a thought translation making it easier to understand sometimes. Where as the KJB is written in much harder to understand 16th-17th century english

(April 22, 2014 at 2:35 pm)FreeTony Wrote:

(April 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: This was one of the first things that troubled me, back when I believed. I used to feel lucky for being born in the country that worshiped the right god.

Nothing a bit of racist stereotyping can't cure.

To quote the rather wonderful jesus-is-saviour.com:

" What percentage of people do you believe are truly saved? If you say "ALL," then you are obviously NOT a believer. 1st John 2:22 teaches that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is a LIAR. That means all Islamic Muslims are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus ever died on a cross. There are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims in the world.

All followers of Judaism are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. That's what the Bible teaches in 1st John 2:22. It's Jesus or Hell.

The question is: Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? I do. By the way, the King James Bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan. "

Ur preference... I see.. not everybodys..