(May 16, 2014 at 9:16 pm)Sejanus Wrote: Prayer doesn't work because your god doesn't exist. It's simple, really.

I don't have a problem with atheists making claims like this. However if you claim prayer studies prove prayer doesn't work....you're a bit thick in the head in my opinion.

the control would be not praying. The variables would be prayer to any deities you can think of. Whichever works more consistently is the better option. Now as far as prayer to deities, you could say a christian praying to Jesus, a muslim praying to Allah, and so forth. The individuals would be devout believers.

There are verses saying not to test god. Probably because people read Matthew 7:7, didn't get what they wanted, and left the faith. if you want praise, you have to give something in return. If he apparently doesn't, it's little wonder than Christianity is in the minority of the world's population.

(May 16, 2014 at 10:15 pm)Kitanetos Wrote:

(May 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm)Heywood Wrote: You cannot guarantee God even considers the prayers genuine prayers and not artifacts of a scientific study.

Of course not, because for god to be considered a proper variable he must first be proven to exist. Without his existence to support the controlled variable, one can only study the effects belief in god and prayer have on particular outcomes.

Studies have shown that mind alteration geared toward the positive sometimes, that being the operative word, can improve an outcome. Of course, even the opposite can be stated as well. As a pessimist, I can state for certain that sometimes good things happen to me even though I was genuinely expecting the worst.

Outcomes, overall, cannot be controlled by thought, mind alteration, or god. Outcomes occur the way they do for the simple reason that was the way they were supposed to occur. Outcomes are nothing more than coincidences, no matter how much meaning we would prefer to attribute to them.

I don't believe this is true. If what you claim is true, you wouldn't need people to actually pray to be an element of the study. Instead you would simply tell(lie to) one group that they were receiving prayers. The other group you tell prayers are not being offered for them.

Prayer studies make the assumption that God exists and then proceed to test if God answers prayers. That is why they go to lengths to recruit prayers to actually pray.

(May 16, 2014 at 10:09 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(May 16, 2014 at 10:05 pm)Losty Wrote: Ask and you shall receive seek and you shall find knock and the door will be slammed in your face? Is that how the verse goes? Hmm

I don't want to argue the bible....but I know it doesn't say, "participate in a scientific experiment and you will be healed". By making an intercessory request an artifact of a scientific experiment, you change the nature of the act itself.

True, but you can't argue that all prayers are scientific experiments except the ones that are 'answered'

Quote:That's a faulty question since countless people experienced years of combat and didn't get injured at all.

Whether they prayed or not counted for a lot fucking less than how straight the Germans were shooting.

(May 16, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Heywood Wrote: I don't believe this is true. If what you claim is true, you wouldn't need people to actually pray to be an element of the study. Instead you would simply tell(lie to) one group that they were receiving prayers.

For the group to pray does not have to be an element of the study. A recent study showed the effects on those whom were being prayed for by others as opposed to those who were not informed that others were praying for them. The study showed that those who knew they were receiving prayer fared worse in recovering than those who were not receiving prayer.

(May 16, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Heywood Wrote: Prayer studies make the assumption that God exists and then proceed to test if God answers prayers.

The problem with the scenario is that without concrete evidence that god exists, it cannot be proven that god answered any prayer. It can be proven that those who believe in god believe that god answered their prayers, but it cannot prove that god had any hand in answering the prayers whatsoever.

(May 16, 2014 at 10:27 pm)Losty Wrote:

(May 16, 2014 at 10:09 pm)Heywood Wrote: I don't want to argue the bible....but I know it doesn't say, "participate in a scientific experiment and you will be healed". By making an intercessory request an artifact of a scientific experiment, you change the nature of the act itself.

True, but you can't argue that all prayers are scientific except the ones that are 'answered'

I am not arguing prayer works. I am arguing prayer studies are fatally flawed and cannot be relied upon as evidence prayer works or doesn't work.

(May 16, 2014 at 10:29 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(May 16, 2014 at 10:27 pm)Losty Wrote: True, but you can't argue that all prayers are scientific except the ones that are 'answered'

I am not arguing prayer works. I am arguing prayer studies are fatally flawed and cannot be relied upon as evidence prayer works or doesn't work.

Well yea. I don't think we need a study for prayers. Horrible things happen to millions of people who are devoutly religious every day...

(May 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm)Heywood Wrote: With everything else you can isolate and control variables. With prayer you cannot. You cannot guarantee God even considers the prayers genuine prayers and not artifacts of a scientific study. You cannot guarantee prayers are not offered for people in the control group. Every study I have seen suffers from these two fatal flaws.....meaning the results of the study are useless.

We already know prayer doesn't work because the rate of so-called 'miracles' are no higher or lower for any belief (or lack of) group. Believers of a true god would be able to present data showing that their prayers are more often answered than others. They would be able to show a reduced rate of random accidents, injuries, natural disasters, diseases that no other group (even those with better technology and infrastructure) could match. There are so many believers and so many incidents that definite trends would appear naturally. The data would conclusively show that one set of believers has their prayers answered more often than any other.

Obviously, this never happens.

But, we already knew it was a useless attempt. Hypotheses that are designed to not be tested are worthless assertions that don't deserve attention. When people have voices in their head that aren't Jesus or Allah, we don't even bother testing them for efficacy, and it's precisely the same thing going on.

(May 16, 2014 at 9:09 pm)Heywood Wrote: I'm not a big believer in the power of prayer for reasons that have nothing to do with the results of prayer studies. That being said, I often hear atheists claim that scientific studies of prayer show that it doesn't work. I cringe that people actually put faith in studies which are obviously fatally flawed. How do you test God? How do you control that variable?

Suppose I am a researcher looking for evidence for the "power of prayer". I ask my participants to pray for a certain group of heart patients. Does God actually consider those prayers to be prayers or merely elements in a "scientific" study? Maybe God has decided he will not be tested and ignores those prayers or maybe he decides to apply the "graces" from those "prayers" to people not under the scrutiny of the researcher.

There is a reason researchers will often keep the true purpose of a study away from the test subjects....they don't want the study to influence the actions of their subjects. With God that is impossible to do. A researcher studying the power of prayer has to hope that his subject, God, will cooperate in the study...he can't trick God into cooperating.

Second, Prayer studies will contain a control group of people for whom prayers are not offered. But the researchers cannot guarantee that prayers are not offered for this group. A patient who is part of the not prayed for control group.....may mention he has a heart problem to a friend not part of or privy to the study....the friend then says a prayer for the patient. It is simply impossible to have an untainted control group. Somebody, outside the study is always going to know the patients condition.....and might pray for them.

Can any atheists point to a prayer study that isn't flawed?

Can you suggest a prayer study that is, in your considered, opinion, not flawed, and yet is, through some explicable mechanism, capable of actually detecting the Inefficacy of prayer should praying to Jesus actually be ineffective?

I get it. A non flawed study is one that, somehow, anyhow, arrived at the conclusion that praying to god works but praying to ally doesn't. The flaw study is one which would have been considered unflawed if it detected that praying to Allah doesn't work but praying to Jesus works.

I might say I am holding my breath, but I would have to be truly immortal to wait that long, whether holding my breath or not.

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(May 16, 2014 at 9:42 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Jesus said that if a believer asked for anything in prayer that he would give it to the person. If you believe in Jesus pray to him and ask for what you want. It's therefore easy to determine if prayer works.

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(May 16, 2014 at 9:39 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The US military cemetery at Omaha Beach.

I wonder how many prayed to get across that fucking beach?

That's a faulty question since countless people experienced years of combat and didn't get injured at all.

And countless people experienced years of combat and didn't get injured, without praying.

Hmmm, how did that happen?

And yet undoubtedly many beneath these crosses did pray, and perhaps they prayed to the right gods and are in Valhalla now, rather than sucking Jesus cock in a dreary eternity of enforced make belief happiness? How come?