(May 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(May 21, 2014 at 3:22 pm)Losty Wrote: Deidre my love, yes of course a fetus grow, inside of its mother's womb. The point was just like a sperm cannot become a fetus without the egg and the uterin wall, a fetus cannot become a baby on its own. If you have a fetus outside of a womb it will not grow in its own.

I know but it is the way life is. No pun. The reason I lean pro life (and I hate that phrase because it implies I'm anti abortion which I'm not) is that I think it has a very dark side that comes with it. Not just for the woman who undergoes one but also for society. We don't believe a fetus has rights. It can't have rights technically because it can't live on its own, true. Or grow on its own. But that creates a slippery slope.

Where we start to view life in terms of only if someone can sustain it on their own.
When does life begin? I guess that becomes the question.

That's all I'm saying.

I've had friends who've had abortions who still struggle after over a decade of making their decisions. There is a dark side to it. For society as well

I guess we just feel the way we do about this topic.

I know what you mean. I am not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. Sometimes for some people, abortion is the best option. Sometimes it's the only option. It isn't my place to tell someone what options are best for them. I know someone who had an abortion too. She never struggled with it and she never felt guilty. She doesn't think abortions are fun and she doesn't go around telling people to have them, but she does counsel people who struggle after abortion. I've talked with her a lot about it. She says she has no regrets because she knows what she did was right for herself, her family, and even her fetus.
Being anti choice is not the way to go about ending abortion. We could almost completely cut out all abortions that aren't medically necessary. The brick wall that is blocking our path is that the same people who are anti-choice are generally also anti-sexual education, anti-contraceptives, anti-women's health in general. Political figures who advocate against choice also advocate against sex ed that teaches anything but abstinence, they advocate huge cuts in what health insurance should have to cover for women, they advocate against birth control, they advocate against health care for newborn babies whose parents cannot afford it, they advocate against everything that we would need to reduce abortions. It pisses me off.

You say there is a dark side to abortion. Well if it comes to a child suffering because their parents cannot afford to feed them, buy them clothes, and give them proper health care, or because their parents don't want them and cannot be bothered to care for them properly, I see abortion as the lessor of two evils.

(May 21, 2014 at 3:34 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(May 21, 2014 at 3:30 pm)BlackSwordsman Wrote: The ball is now in your court.

Take a reading class. I said that the clump of cells isn't a 'person'.

True but it is still considered life.

It just isn't considered by many to be "valuable" life at that stage, is really more of an accurate statement. (I deem it valuable, because it marks the beginning of life as it will eventually become)

But that's a meaningful distinction. It has yet to become a person. The baby does not exist, the individual does not exist, and there's no link traveling back in time, just as an embryo spontaneously aborted by the body doesn't have a potential person hanging out in an alternate future reality where they were born.

True in that sense, but it is still the beginning components of human life. And thus, my opinion, unless there is a valid reason to destroy it, it isn't a good idea to me. And by "valid" of course that would differ from person to person. I'm for keeping abortion legal but being real about what it actually is and is not. That's really more my issue with the topic.

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(May 21, 2014 at 3:48 pm)Losty Wrote:

(May 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: I know but it is the way life is. No pun. The reason I lean pro life (and I hate that phrase because it implies I'm anti abortion which I'm not) is that I think it has a very dark side that comes with it. Not just for the woman who undergoes one but also for society. We don't believe a fetus has rights. It can't have rights technically because it can't live on its own, true. Or grow on its own. But that creates a slippery slope.

Where we start to view life in terms of only if someone can sustain it on their own.
When does life begin? I guess that becomes the question.

That's all I'm saying.

I've had friends who've had abortions who still struggle after over a decade of making their decisions. There is a dark side to it. For society as well

I guess we just feel the way we do about this topic.

I know what you mean. I am not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. Sometimes for some people, abortion is the best option. Sometimes it's the only option. It isn't my place to tell someone what options are best for them. I know someone who had an abortion too. She never struggled with it and she never felt guilty. She doesn't think abortions are fun and she doesn't go around telling people to have them, but she does counsel people who struggle after abortion. I've talked with her a lot about it. She says she has no regrets because she knows what she did was right for herself, her family, and even her fetus.
Being anti choice is not the way to go about ending abortion. We could almost completely cut out all abortions that aren't medically necessary. The brick wall that is blocking our path is that the same people who are anti-choice are generally also anti-sexual education, anti-contraceptives, anti-women's health in general. Political figures who advocate against choice also advocate against sex ed that teaches anything but abstinence, they advocate huge cuts in what health insurance should have to cover for women, they advocate against birth control, they advocate against health care for newborn babies whose parents cannot afford it, they advocate against everything that we would need to reduce abortions. It pisses me off.

You say there is a dark side to abortion. Well if it comes to a child suffering because their parents cannot afford to feed them, buy them clothes, and give them proper health care, or because their parents don't want them and cannot be bothered to care for them properly, I see abortion as the lessor of two evils.

Birth control is an option and free for people who qualify.
That's a better option. But I hear you, I do Losty.

(May 21, 2014 at 3:16 pm)Losty Wrote: Seriously KUSA. You know what I think about people who use pictures like that as arguments against abortion? I think you're fucking assholes. I could just as easily post a picture of the little 4 month old girl whose mom got her boyfriend to fuck her to death, or the little 8 month old boy who sat in his own shit for days until he died of infection while his parents were playing video games, or babies who starve to death while their parents are off buy drugs with the formula vouchers. I could post pictures of them as an argument for abortion, but I'm not a fucking asshole.

Seeing that picture bothers us because fetuses look like babies. Somewhat deformed under developed, but they do look like babies. You want to know the difference. An aborted fetus before 24 weeks doesn't suffer for one second. An aborted fetus never knows pain. An unwanted baby knows pain. Maybe not to the extremes of the horror cases that I mentioned above, but unwanted babies know suffering. Babies whose parents cannot afford to feed them, babies whose parents resent them because they feel like their dreams are ruined, babies whose parents are just incapable of loving children. These are people they feel pain.

Hold on with the name calling honey. I simply asked a question. I can see both sides of the fence here and I kinda straddle that fence.

To me if it looks like a clump of cells then I have little emotion about it but when it looks like a kid then it saddens me. There must be a reason why it strikes an emotional response. But don't worry if it was yours I would not stand in your way if you wanted to abort it.

Again, I was asking a question. I wasn't taking a stance.

(May 21, 2014 at 3:56 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: True but it is still considered life.

It just isn't considered by many to be "valuable" life at that stage, is really more of an accurate statement. (I deem it valuable, because it marks the beginning of life as it will eventually become)

Of course it's still life, and of course there's a value judgement. Thought and feeling (to be more specific, thought and feeling on our own level) are the factors which define our value judgement, and appreciation, of human life. Zygotes are clumps of cells that have nothing resembling thought or feeling. Around 90% of abortions take place in the first trimester. Less than 2% take place after 20 weeks.

I personally have a strong aversion to abortion, but it is not my choice to make for other people.

(May 21, 2014 at 5:21 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(May 21, 2014 at 3:56 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: True but it is still considered life.

It just isn't considered by many to be "valuable" life at that stage, is really more of an accurate statement. (I deem it valuable, because it marks the beginning of life as it will eventually become)

Of course it's still life, and of course there's a value judgement. Thought and feeling (to be more specific, thought and feeling on our own level) are the factors which define our value judgement, and appreciation, of human life. Zygotes are clumps of cells that have nothing resembling thought or feeling. Around 90% of abortions take place in the first trimester. Less than 2% take place after 20 weeks.

I personally have a strong aversion to abortion, but it is not my choice to make for other people.

I agree with your last statement. I can't make the decision for others, and I'm not of the anti-abortion camp.

And yes, most abortions take place in the first trimester...and the life that is growing has a heartbeart in the first trimester.

We can all have our opinions, that is true. But, the value judgement we may or may not give to life during the first trimester, doesn't change the facts of biology.

That is more of my point. Abortion should always remain a safe and legal option for women, but I don't like the distortion of facts that lead people to thinking abortion is an innocuous procedure.

(May 21, 2014 at 3:22 pm)Losty Wrote:

(May 21, 2014 at 3:10 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Lol did I read that right a few posts up? A fetus doesn't grow?

I don't whether to laugh or be sad that some of you have convinced yourselves of the lies of the pro-abortion extremists.

All life has a beginning point. Your opinion doesn't negate that biological fact.

Deidre my love, yes of course a fetus grow, inside of its mother's womb. The point was just like a sperm cannot become a fetus without the egg and the uterin wall, a fetus cannot become a baby on its own. If you have a fetus outside of a womb it will not grow in its own.

You cannot exist in 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe. Losty without the planet earth is every bit as dead as a fetus outside the womb. Every living things needs a specific environment to exist within.....a fetus is no different.

A fetus, and a zygote for that matter, meet text book definitions for living organisms. They are independent beings of the species human. They are human beings. Abortion is the killing of a human being....pretending otherwise is ludicrous. I am not saying that you deny that abortion is the killing of a human being, I am just using your post to make this point.

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(May 21, 2014 at 4:02 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: But that's a meaningful distinction. It has yet to become a person. The baby does not exist, the individual does not exist, and there's no link traveling back in time, just as an embryo spontaneously aborted by the body doesn't have a potential person hanging out in an alternate future reality where they were born.

Basically you are saying abortion is okay because some human beings do not have the same worth as others. This was the same argument the Americans used to slaughter the native population of North America. It is the ideology that is responsible for the more evil in the world than any other.

The topic has always begged the question to me...''is life only considered life, if we think it is such?''

A fetus is either life or it isn't. It doesn't become life because I want it. It doesn't become a non-entity (not life) because I don't want it.

I believe in a woman's right to choose. But, she should have full knowledge and acceptance as to what exactly she is choosing. It is a hard decision to make for any woman, and of those friends of mine who have had abortions, the angst they have carried with them hasn't been over ridding their bodies of a bunch of cells/tissues. They believe they aborted a life. I can't tell another woman what route to take, but I just see it from a different angle, maybe. And I hope as time goes on, abortions are less, but so are unwanted pregnancies in general, due to women having more tools and education available to them so they don't find themselves having to take a route that they feel is their only option.

(May 21, 2014 at 6:18 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(May 21, 2014 at 3:22 pm)Losty Wrote: Deidre my love, yes of course a fetus grow, inside of its mother's womb. The point was just like a sperm cannot become a fetus without the egg and the uterin wall, a fetus cannot become a baby on its own. If you have a fetus outside of a womb it will not grow in its own.

You cannot exist in 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe. Losty without the planet earth is every bit as dead as a fetus outside the womb. Every living things needs a specific environment to exist within.....a fetus is no different.

A fetus, and a zygote for that matter, meet text book definitions for living organisms. They are independent beings of the species human. They are human beings. Abortion is the killing of a human being....pretending otherwise is ludicrous. I am not saying that you deny that abortion is the killing of a human being, I am just using your post to make this point.

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(May 21, 2014 at 4:02 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: But that's a meaningful distinction. It has yet to become a person. The baby does not exist, the individual does not exist, and there's no link traveling back in time, just as an embryo spontaneously aborted by the body doesn't have a potential person hanging out in an alternate future reality where they were born.

Basically you are saying abortion is okay because some human beings do not have the same worth as others. This was the same argument the Americans used to slaughter the native population of North America. It is the ideology that is responsible for the more evil in the world than any other.

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