(May 26, 2014 at 12:57 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(May 26, 2014 at 10:30 am)Godschild Wrote: I have a book that breaks down the Creation and Garden of Eden stories word by word, I've loaned it out several times and need to find where it's at, it would be very useful in these discussions.

Do you remember what it's called and who wrote it? I could then look it up and see what, if any, religious beliefs the author had or has.

Unfortunately I do not, it might be called "Genesis," it's been a long time since I've seen it, hopefully I can turn it up soon.

(May 26, 2014 at 3:34 am)Godschild Wrote: Lucifer has no descendants, angels can not procreate, I do not know the verse in the NT that tells us this, but I will find it if you wish.

CA Wrote:I'm going to use the Complete Jewsish Bible for a change.

Fair enough.

Quote:The Complete Jewish Bible was translated by David H. Stern, an Israel-based Messianic Jewish theologian. Published in 1998 by Jewish New Testament Publications, the CJB claims to be “Jewish in manner and presentation.” The names of the books are Jewish along with their English names (if different). Semitic names are used for people and places. It also incorporates Hebrew and Yiddish expressions that Stern refers to as “Jewish English.”

Restoring the "Jewishness" of the Bible is a good thing. The Bible was written predominantly by Jews and to a Jewish audience. The Complete Jewish Bible should be commended for recognizing those facts. Overall, the CJB is a good and accurate translation of the Bible. It does tend to be too "free" in its renderings, sometimes interpreting instead of translating. Also, although it was in no sense the purpose of the Complete Jewish Bible, the idea of there being a separate Bible for Jews can lead toward division in the Body of Christ.

CA Wrote:So back to Genesis 3

Quote:3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made.

14 Adonai, God, said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock and wild animals. You will crawl on your belly and eat dust as long as you live. 15 I will put animosity between you and the woman, and between your descendant and her descendant; he will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

Other translations use the word 'seed' instead of descendant. For example, Genesis 22 - King James Version

I use the New American Standard, it's sited as one of the best literal translations of all the different ones. The NAS uses the word seed, I think the word seed fits best because by necessity the word seed does not have to mean just procreate, but to create in general.

CA Wrote:The question, then, is what was God talking about when he referred to the serpent's descendant/seed?

The serpent's seed is those he comes to deceive until their death, those who reject God. He creates them by deception not through biological conception.

(May 26, 2014 at 11:37 am)Brakeman Wrote: Many, if not most of the christians of old believed that the angels did have sex with humans and procreate successfully by their interpretations of these Genesis verses. Why wouldn't they have gotten it right?

CA Wrote:A good point. I found an interesting article about this on Got Questions Org which is a Christian website - Who were the sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4?

Quote:The three primary views on the identity of the sons of God are 1) they were fallen angels, 2) they were powerful human rulers, or 3) they were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain.

Yes I agree these are the most popular views and I hold with #2 powerful humans.

CA Wrote:View 1) is the most likely position. Yes, it is an interesting “contradiction” to say that angels are sexless and then to say that the “sons of God” were fallen angels who procreated with human females. However, while angels are spiritual beings (Hebrews 1:14), they can appear in human, physical form (Mark 16:5). The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the two angels who were with Lot (Genesis 19:1-5). It is plausible that angels are capable of taking on human form, even to the point of replicating human sexuality and possibly even reproduction.

I disagree, the angels were not created to procreate and scripture confirms this as you pointed out they are spiritual beings.
I agree that at times we see them in scripture appearing as men, never women, but do they have the power to change their appearance or is it God who changes their appearance. We are not told but I believe a little look at scripture can help, as you said below the fallen ones seem not to do this and angel means messenger, and in this case the messenger of God. This is what we see them doing throughout scripture. God also doesn't allow even Satan to make man to sin, tempt yes, man has the freedom to choose. As far as Sodom is concerned these people were so perverse they would probably seek most anything.

CA Wrote:Why do the fallen angels not do this more often? It seems that God imprisoned the fallen angels who committed this evil sin, so that the other fallen angels would not do the same (as described in Jude 6). Earlier Hebrew interpreters and apocryphal and pseudopigraphal writings are unanimous in holding to the view that fallen angels are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4. This by no means closes the debate. However, the view that Genesis 6:1-4 involves fallen angels mating with human females has a strong contextual, grammatical, and historical basis.

Jude 1:6 is not about the angels having relations with the women on earth, it is about the rebellion in heaven. If you believe that God imprisoned them for such an act, do you think the condemned would care about this kind of punishment, they are doomed to hell. No one has proven the angels are the ones called "sons of God," but man has been referred to as sons of God. The angels being the ones who had sexual relations with the human female is not consistent with what is actually said about them in scripture. The word translated giant in Genesis 6:4 means tyrant or bully of a man, which translates to a giant of a man, not necessarily a giant.

CA Wrote:So, was the serpent in Eden a talking snake or a fallen angel who was going to have descendants?

No, the serpent was a special creation that was at the least controlled by Lucifer and the seed are those who fall to Satan's deception.

GC

(May 27, 2014 at 2:37 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes I agree these are the most popular views and I hold with #2 powerful humans.

Maybe the real answer for this topic is that the Garden of Eden story means whatever people want it to mean. There are many different interpretations in both Judaism and Christianity.

Quote:Conclusion
Although we cannot say for certain that Adam and Eve will be in Heaven, there are enough indicators for us to work out that this is probably the case, and almost no indicators against it.

http://www.creationtips.com/adam_heaven.html

oh myyy,...god sent his most proud creation to hell,and this guy should be our role model in morality.

(May 27, 2014 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote: Scripture says God can not lie, this seems to indicate He is incapable of lying, scripture also says God can not do evil or sin (both I see as the same), this to me means He is incapable of these actions.

I understand what you are saying, but it just diminishes god in my opinion. God is conceivably the most perfect being in existence. Thus, while god is not restricted from doing something (such as lying) he is not tempted to do so, as there is nothing to gain from wrongdoing. To be limited in any way is to be diminished in some way, is my view of it.

Quote:No I do not think so, obedience and love go hand in hand, this is a theme throughout the scriptures, the scriptures show them to be locked together. The tree was not meant as a stumbling block, it was there to show love through obedience.

But you can obey someone even if you do not love them, and you can show love through many other ways than obedience. A person may obey out of fear, or out of self-interest. God would have known that Eve loved him because he can read the hearts of men.

Quote:Agreed the tree did symbolize God's sovereignty over man, I'm not sure God would say that should be enough for man, He did create us with feelings such as love and it is love He desires from us. So choice has to be a part of the relationship or it is just sovereignty.

I think that there were many ways to do that, though. If god did spend time with Adam and Eve, then they had many ways to show how they felt about him. Doing the assigned work to the fullest of their abilities, or enjoying the world given them and the time spent with him. The tree stood outside of the relationship, in that they could have had the same with or without it. The only use I can see for it is giving them a way to express a desire to separate themselves from god.

Quote:No additional information is given, I do think it is implied by the walks they took, regardless the story doesn't tell us one way or the other.
I look at it this way, parents do not tell there children not do do something unless they know that child understands going against their will is wrong.

The story confirms that the serpent's claim (that they would be like god, knowing good and evil) comes true, as god himself expresses this concern. The question would then become- what is meant by knowledge of good and evil? Is there some other meaning to it, and does the Bible provide an answer?

Quote:So in the end I believe Eve knew that to disobey God meant she was not giving Him all of her love.

I think it is not unreasonable to assume that she at least understood that god would not be pleased. So it becomes a question of what she thought she was gaining, versus what she thought she was losing. If she believes the serpent, then she thinks she will not die and that she will gain some kind of knowledge that god withheld from her. Did she think it would put her on equal footing? Or was she so overtaken by curiosity that she did not consider any other consequence and just wanted to know?

Quote:Regardless what she was thinking I believe the serpent knew he had her on the right track to tempt her, not with the death want happen, but that there was power in that fruit which would make her like God. I believe she thought of only good things happening because she did not know what evil resided in the knowledge she would receive. Children who disobey their parents know there's a punishment coming (or at least I did and knew it would be very unpleasant, the worse part was waiting to find out what would happen), they how ever like I did, convinced themselves that the pleasure gained was worth the punishment.

Right, this is kind of what I am thinking above. Eve must have considered that there was something to gain that was more valuable than what she stood to lose. She stood to lose god's approval, at the very least. She might have to deal with an angry god, one who had told her she would be killed for eating the fruit. If she truly understood the concept of death, she must have believed the serpent when it said she would not die. So I wonder what she learned about god that made her confident enough to accept the serpent's word and eat the fruit.

Quote:No not at all that choice was determined by what Adam and Eve did, the consequences of disobedience. Sin made man imperfect, once it was introduced into creation it would be hard to fix, the fix cost God more than it has cost man.

I think it was within god's power to deal with it differently, at least where their descendants were concerned. Adam and Eve had broken a clear rule with a clear consequence, but that was spread to everyone. If god gave them that command, then there is the implicit understanding that humanity was capable of sin. So god had already put the pieces in place to deal with the possibility of people turning away from him. Why the plan that requires millennia of human suffering and even god himself being tortured and killed in human form? Is it that Adam and Eve were the first humans, and there were no others who could continue the line of perfect people after them?

(May 27, 2014 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote:

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(May 26, 2014 at 12:09 pm)Tonus Wrote: What I mean is that god is not restricted from taking any action he pleases. His particular nature may mean that he does not take certain actions, but he is capable of them if he wished. I may occasionally get angry enough with a person that I'd like to hit them, but I it's extremely rare that I even yell at another person. I am capable of hitting someone, but it's against my nature to do so. If god was somehow incapable of taking certain action, then he is more limited than I am, and that doesn't make sense to me.

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Scripture says God can not lie, this seems to indicate He is incapable of lying, scripture also says God can not do evil or sin (both I see as the same), this to me means He is incapable of these actions. I do not see God as a being who has to live a perfect life but, One who lives a perfect life because that is who He is, He's not capable of living ant other way. If God could do evil that means evil existed before creation, thus Satan could not have been said by God to be the father of lies.

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GC

The Bible says in several places that God lies and deceives.

1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

From SAB http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/god_lie.html

But of course GC knows god so much better than these mere prophets..

I'm sorry, though I thought that even in Christianity, those who go to heaven or hell will be determined after Judgement day. No one is either in heaven or in hell right now.

(May 27, 2014 at 9:25 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I'm sorry, though I thought that even in Christianity, those who go to heaven or hell will be determined after Judgement day. No one is either in heaven or in hell right now.

That depends on which "flavor" of christian you are. Some believe in a type of purgatory, some just that you sleep until judgment day, but most that I know believe that each person has their own judgment day and that it occurs the instant you die.

Well actually, most christians just say "what???, I'll have to ask preacher Jim about that.. I dunno??"

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Friedrich Nietzsche is dead ... GOD A insecure skydaddy believer who feels he must talk for god because he knows god can't talk for himself.

A casual stroll through hellDevil proves that faith is everything...GOD A insecure skydaddy believer who feels he must talk for god because he knows god can't talk for himself, because he's just "make-believe."

(May 27, 2014 at 8:48 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 27, 2014 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote:

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Scripture says God can not lie, this seems to indicate He is incapable of lying, scripture also says God can not do evil or sin (both I see as the same), this to me means He is incapable of these actions. I do not see God as a being who has to live a perfect life but, One who lives a perfect life because that is who He is, He's not capable of living ant other way. If God could do evil that means evil existed before creation, thus Satan could not have been said by God to be the father of lies.

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GC

The Bible says in several places that God lies and deceives.

You need to bring proof.

GC