(June 4, 2014 at 10:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: -How, non-arbitrarily, can we determine that a physical system has qualia?

By examining the physical system and seeing if it has the right components with the right specification/configuration to be consistent with systems in which we can observe the emergence of qualia.

A useful analogy is analysing engine components in order to calculate the BHP.

(June 4, 2014 at 10:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I see.

You are quoting something from an earlier context. The past couple pages, I've been operating with it given that brains make minds, i.e. I'm looking at the OP through the perspective of physical monism. Here's a summary of the progression:

1) (original) It is not knowable whether any physical system, including other people, has qualia, because the qualia aren't accessible, and because brain function (with or without actual experience of qualia) is sufficient to explain behaviors. Therefore, the science of mind is rooted in a philsophical assumption, not an observable reality.
2) (later) GIVEN THAT a person with a brain who seems to experience qualia really does (and doesn't just seem to), it is still not knowable whether the existence of some form of mind is local only to complex brain structure and function, or is generalizable to simpler physical exchanges of information (like a single photon from a distant star being absorbed by an atom, for example).
3) In discussion of brain parts, I'm trying to define how precisely we can narrow down the relationship of "the brain" (really a name for a lot of separate parts with different effects on experience) to the existence (not the content) of qualia. What minimal neural system would be sufficient for the existence of the most simple "mind" or experience?

1. Solipsism
2. Definitional problem (more below)
3. Work in progress

(June 4, 2014 at 10:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: If you want me to present a single thesis, I'll take my stand on this question, which seems to be unanswerable:

-How, non-arbitrarily, can we determine that a physical system has qualia?

Nobody has yet given even a plausible answer to this question. And until we answer it, there's really no good answer to the OP.

This and number 2 above are similar. What I think is happening is that the idea and definition of consciousness is being expanded to include every conceivable physical process. If the definition of consciousness includes everything, so to speak, then it can mean nothing.

To be given serious consideration and to make a reasonable attempt at discovery and explanation, the 'other minds' problem must be given some boundary. Invoking the photoelectric effect in order to surmise that metallic atoms experience qualia is a bit premature given that we are still struggling with #3 above. With no independent means of verification we are already making assumptions regarding other humans; a reasonable assumption in my opinion based on observed behavior and the predictive power that comes with assuming other minds in humans.

Let the particle physicists work the problem from the bottom up and the neuroscientists work from the top down. Philosophers should do their part by attempting to make sense of it all and even provide some guidance to future inquiry; however, what-ifs run amok only frustrate the endeavor.

Don't get me wrong, I love imagination and speculative thinking; however, I disdain when too much merit is given to flights of fancy that attempt to go straight to the core without a means to get there rather than understanding and working within our capabilities to peal back the layers. Keep the speculations at arms length, they might very well be needed as we learn more.

(June 5, 2014 at 8:42 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 10:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: -How, non-arbitrarily, can we determine that a physical system has qualia?

By examining the physical system and seeing if it has the right components with the right specification/configuration to be consistent with systems in which we can observe the emergence of qualia.

A useful analogy is analysing engine components in order to calculate the BHP.

Too general.

I want to know, given a specific physical structure, exactly how you are going to know it has qualia. Saying, "Look at the evidence," or "do science" doesn't really answer that question. WHAT are the right components and the right specifrication/configuration? To extend your engine example, let's say you had a new engine with an unexpected noise level, and you wanted to know what was causing it. Is it the way the parts are configured? Is it due to the properties of a particular alloy at a certain temperature? Is it an issue with the software causing mistimings?

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(June 5, 2014 at 8:55 am)Cato Wrote: This and number 2 above are similar. What I think is happening is that the idea and definition of consciousness is being expanded to include every conceivable physical process. If the definition of consciousness includes everything, so to speak, then it can mean nothing.

One of the options I gave in my neuron-pulling experiment was that the distinction was an arbitrary one. There's no specific point at which the deteriorating brain flickers out of qualia existence and into oblivion. Instead, there's an increasing sense by human judges that the thing they're looking at (or thinking about) no longer fulfills their understanding of what it means to be conscious.

But that doesn't mean there isn't something going on-- some fundamental level of non-oblivion that is intrinsic to a brain in deep sleep, or possibly to a non-brain system.

Quote:To be given serious consideration and to make a reasonable attempt at discovery and explanation, the 'other minds' problem must be given some boundary. Invoking the photoelectric effect in order to surmise that metallic atoms experience qualia is a bit premature given that we are still struggling with #3 above.

It's premature to assert that qualia supervene on atoms or particles, for sure. However, the basis of information exchange can be found right at that fundamental level, so if consciousness is a function of information processing, it's one of the options that should be sensibly considered.

Quote:Don't get me wrong, I love imagination and speculative thinking; however, I disdain when too much merit is given to flights of fancy that attempt to go straight to the core without a means to get there rather than understanding and working within our capabilities to peal back the layers. Keep the speculations at arms length, they might very well be needed as we learn more.

When speculating, I try to compile a full-spectrum list. It is then hoped that the answer is somewhere in there, and that the process of elimination or new information will start shaving off members from the list.

Given that mind arises from a brain, we have a problem-- we are only familiar with qualia as they relate to a functioning or mostly-functioning brain. We cannot isolate substrates and know if they involve qualia. We cannot really use the process of observation to know if, for example, a nerve bundle is associated with a primitive "spark" of consciousness.

(May 31, 2014 at 8:08 am)Chas Wrote:

(May 29, 2014 at 5:25 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Sorry, I must have confused a comment by ChadWooters with yourself. YOU said you're an agnostic idealist, yes? Just out of curiosity, why idealism rather than realism, in your view?

I don't think I ever said that, either.

ChadWooters, not Chas...Wooters.