(June 7, 2014 at 1:16 pm)Cato Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm)mickiel Wrote: I disagree, we have the mans tomb. Myths don't have real burial grounds;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

Are you telling us you think Abraham was buried there?

I think its possible , but they are not letting anyone in to examine it.

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(June 7, 2014 at 1:22 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm)mickiel Wrote: I disagree, we have the mans tomb. Myths don't have real burial grounds;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

Quote:Situated beneath a Saladin-era mosque converted from a large rectangular Herodian-era structure, the series of subterranean chambers is located in the heart of the old city of Hebron (Al-Khalil) in the Hebron Hills. According to tradition that has been associated with both the Book of Genesis and the Quran, the cave and adjoining field were purchased by Abraham as a burial plot.

Hebron is in the right area.

Quote:Hebron (Arabic: About this sound الخليل (help·info) al-Khalīl; Hebrew:About this sound חֶבְרוֹן (help·info), Standard Hebrew: Ḥevron, Tiberian: Ḥeḇrôn ISO 259-3: Ḥebron; Ottoman Turkish Halilürrahman, Ancient Greek Hebrṓn, Χεβρών) is a Palestinian[3][4][5][6] city located in the southern West Bank, 30 km (19 mi) south of Jerusalem.

Unfortunately, tradition and myths don't prove that Abraham actually existed and the number of occupants in this cave increased as the tradition really got going.

Quote:According to Genesis, three biblical couples are buried there:

Abraham and Sarah (Genesis 23:1-20; Genesis 49:31)
Isaac and Rebekah (Genesis 35:29; Genesis 49:31)
Jacob and Leah (Genesis 49:28-33; Genesis 50:4-5; Genesis 50:12-13)

There is a Jewish tradition, that besides the three biblical couples mentioned above, that Adam and Eve were buried there also. (Zohar, Ruth 96) Certain Kabbalah texts also add that Moses and Zipporah are buried in the cave. [2]

Another Jewish tradition tells that when Jacob was brought to be buried in the cave, Esau prevented the burial claiming he had the right to be buried in the cave; after some negotiation Naphtali was sent to Egypt to retrieve the document stating Esau sold his part in the cave to Jacob. As this was going on Hushim, the son of Dan who was hard of hearing, did not understand what was going on, and why his grandfather was not being buried, so he asked for an explanation; after being given one he became angry and said: "Is my grandfather to lie there in contempt until Naphtali returns from the land of Egypt?" He then took a club and killed Esau, and Esau's head rolled into the cave.[37] This means that the head of Esau is also buried in the cave.

There's another interesting tradition about the cave.

Quote:According to the Midrash, the Patriarchs were buried in the cave because the cave is the threshold to the Garden of Eden. The Patriarchs are said not to be dead but "sleeping". They rise to beg mercy for their children throughout the generations. According to the Zohar,[41] this tomb is the gateway through which souls enter into Gan Eden, heaven.

The Jewish Virtual Library has more information. The Cave of Machpelah Tomb of the Patriarchs

Quote:The double cave, a mystery of thousands of years, was uncovered several years ago beneath the massive building, revealing artifacts from the Early Israelite Period (some 30 centuries ago). The structure was built during the Second Temple Period (about two thousand years ago) by Herod, King of Judea, providing a place for gatherings and Jewish prayers at the graves of the Patriarchs.

It's possible that a leader of a migration was buried here but it's unlikely that his name was Abram, later changed to Abraham. When the Mesopotamian creation and flood myths were adapted for a monotheistic religion the folk history of the migration would have been reworked to suit the religion as well.

Etymology of the name Abraham.

Quote:masc. proper name, name of the first of the patriarchs in the Old Testament, from Hebrew Abraham "father of a multitude," from abh "father" + *raham (cognate with Arabic ruham "multitude"); the name he altered from Abram "high father," from second element ram "high, exalted." Related: Abrahamic.

It's very convenient that this patriarch's original name happened to mean 'high father' in Hebrew because it was easily changed to a related name which meant 'father of a multitude' in Hebrew.

Excellent research; as I said, its possible.

(June 7, 2014 at 1:25 pm)mickiel Wrote: Excellent research; as I said, its possible.

Even if archaeologists were allowed to excavate the cave and they found some bones it wouldn't prove that the God of the Bible actually exists. I'd love to know what those mysterious artefacts are, though.

It's possible that King Arthur was based on a real Romano British warlord who had some success fighting the Saxons. It's also possible that he had an advisor who was believed to be a magician. This doesn't mean that the myths and legends about Arthur and his knights are true, though.

But Arthur's Grave is Nowhere Seen': Twelfth-Century and Later Solutions to Arthur's Current Whereabouts

Arthur was supposed to have been buried at Glastonbury Abbey but he's also alive and well on the Isle of Avalon and is going to return one day. Another tradition says he's sleeping in a magical land which can be found by entering caves in various places. That's when he's not leading a Wild Hunt.

Quote:At South Cadbury, Somerset, the legend of Arthur asleep in an underground 'Otherworld' is joined by another fascinating explanation of Arthur's current whereabouts, recorded here in the modern period: there is an old track near Cadbury Castle called 'Arthur's Hunting Causeway' and spectral riders and hunting-dogs can be heard rushing along it on rough winter nights, these being Arthur and his hounds - usually invisible except for glint of his horse's silver shoes - riding in the Wild Hunt (Palmer 1976: 83). This 'Wild Hunt' is an widespread and ancient folk-belief found across Europe, which would seem to at least partly owe its origins to an explanation of the strange noises made by storms and high winds. It is a phantom chase with a spectral/Otherworldly host (often said to be the souls of the dead), coursing through a forest or the air at night with bugles or horns blowing and accompanied by the cries of the hunting pack. One of the earliest-recorded leaders of this Otherworldly hunt was Odin/Woden, the Germanic god, and the leadership of the hunt seems to have been originally part of the role of the Indo-European Männerbund-gods, Odin being the classic example of this type (Kershaw 2000, especially 20-40), although it was attached over the centuries to many personages, both mythical and historical, such as Charlemagne, the Devil, Herla (possibly Odin under another name), Arawn (King of Annwfyn, the Welsh Otherworld), and Gwyn ap Nudd.

Even though this folk-myth can be traced back to Odin, it doesn't prove that Odin exists.

(June 7, 2014 at 2:32 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 1:25 pm)mickiel Wrote: Excellent research; as I said, its possible.

Even if archaeologists were allowed to excavate the cave and they found some bones it wouldn't prove that the God of the Bible actually exists. I'd love to know what those mysterious artefacts are, though.

It's possible that King Arthur was based on a real Romano British warlord who had some success fighting the Saxons. It's also possible that he had an advisor who was believed to be a magician. This doesn't mean that the myths and legends about Arthur and his knights are true, though.

But Arthur's Grave is Nowhere Seen': Twelfth-Century and Later Solutions to Arthur's Current Whereabouts

Arthur was supposed to have been buried at Glastonbury Abbey but he's also alive and well on the Isle of Avalon and is going to return one day. Another tradition says he's sleeping in a magical land which can be found by entering caves in various places. That's when he's not leading a Wild Hunt.

Quote:At South Cadbury, Somerset, the legend of Arthur asleep in an underground 'Otherworld' is joined by another fascinating explanation of Arthur's current whereabouts, recorded here in the modern period: there is an old track near Cadbury Castle called 'Arthur's Hunting Causeway' and spectral riders and hunting-dogs can be heard rushing along it on rough winter nights, these being Arthur and his hounds - usually invisible except for glint of his horse's silver shoes - riding in the Wild Hunt (Palmer 1976: 83). This 'Wild Hunt' is an widespread and ancient folk-belief found across Europe, which would seem to at least partly owe its origins to an explanation of the strange noises made by storms and high winds. It is a phantom chase with a spectral/Otherworldly host (often said to be the souls of the dead), coursing through a forest or the air at night with bugles or horns blowing and accompanied by the cries of the hunting pack. One of the earliest-recorded leaders of this Otherworldly hunt was Odin/Woden, the Germanic god, and the leadership of the hunt seems to have been originally part of the role of the Indo-European Männerbund-gods, Odin being the classic example of this type (Kershaw 2000, especially 20-40), although it was attached over the centuries to many personages, both mythical and historical, such as Charlemagne, the Devil, Herla (possibly Odin under another name), Arawn (King of Annwfyn, the Welsh Otherworld), and Gwyn ap Nudd.

Even though this folk-myth can be traced back to Odin, it doesn't prove that Odin exists.

Well there is so much biblical archaeology that leads to evidence of a god existing, its just unreal;

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/palaces.htm

(June 7, 2014 at 1:15 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm)mickiel Wrote: I disagree, we have the mans tomb. Myths don't have real burial grounds;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

My great grandfather has a real burial ground. If I make up a story about him and propagate it to other people, does that mean the events therein suddenly took place?

Yes, you can make up any story you like and his burial ground will force me to believe.

(June 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm)mickiel Wrote: Well there is so much biblical archaeology that leads to evidence of a god existing, its just unreal;

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/palaces.htm

Biblical archaeology is showing that some places mentioned in the Bible existed. There's also something else very interesting on that site but a bit of history first.

Canaan - Hieroglyphic and Hieratic sources

Quote:1500-1000 BC

During the 2nd millennium BC, Ancient Egyptian texts use the term Canaan to refer to an Egyptian-ruled colony, whose boundaries generally corroborate the definition of Canaan found in the Hebrew Bible, bounded to the west by the Mediterranean Sea, to the north in the vicinity of Hamath in Syria, to the east by the Jordan Valley, and to the south by a line extended from the Dead Sea to around Gaza.

Ark Of The Covenant

Quote:Over the Ark was the Kapporeth, a gold plate the same size as the Ark, called in some translations the 'mercy seat'. The golden cherubim stood one at either end of the 'mercy seat' covering it with their outspread wings.

There are two photographs with the following captions -

Quote:Creatures on the shrine doors in the Egyptian pharoah Tutankhamun's tomb.
They strongly resemble the Bible's description of the cherubim.

The Bible specifies 'two cherubim of hammered gold with wings spread upward,
facing each other at the ends of the cover'

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Quote:What might the designers of the Ark been influenced by?

Tutankhamun's Tomb

One of the most startling examples comes from the tomb of Tutankhamun.

When Howard Carter opened the inner chamber, he found a statue of Anubis, Egyptian god of the dead, sitting on top of a large box covered with pure gold. It had poles inserted into rings so that it could be easily carried.

The Bible tells us that the Ark was originally transported from shrine to shrine, before David's son Solomon built a permanent home for it in the Temple in Jerusalem.

The poles of acacia, specified in the Bible, were used in much the same way as the poles on the Shrine of Anubis - to lift and carry.

The outer casings around Tutankhamun's coffin were covered with hammered gold leaf. At each corner, and on the doors, were winged female figures (cherubim?) who stretched their wings out and over the surface of the casings, as if to protect its contents.

Surely this cannot be coincidence? Each item described in the Bible

the winged protectors

the hammered gold and

the poles fitted onto moveable shrines

appears in Tutankhamun's tomb. One must assume that the Egyptian designs were copied and adapted by the Hebrew tribes of the time when they created their own religious artifacts.

As Canaan was an Egyptian colony for a while, the Hebrews didn't need to be in Egypt to learn of Egyptian designs.

If old ruins and artefacts prove that deities exist the Egyptian gods and goddess have to exist along with the Mesopotamian gods and goddesses. The God of the Bible is now one of many.

This site has some interesting explanations for various things and I found this while browsing.

Cain and Abel

Quote:Farming

In Neolithic (and more recent) hunter-gatherer societies, women collecting seed noticed that plants appeared where seeds had been dropped the previous year. In time the women began to drop seed deliberately and harvest it the following year when they returned. This was probably how agriculture started.

It may be why Eve, rather than Adam, was blamed for mankind's loss of the Garden of Eden. Food had been plentiful enough (in a good year) without much effort on people's part. Now, with the invention of the plough, things changed. Suddenly more land could be cultivated, and more people fed - but this required more work than hunter-gatherers were accustomed to. The 'Garden of Eden' was lost.

Cain Murders Abel

Quote:What the Story is really about
It would be a mistake to think this story is about one event, long ago, when two brothers quarrelled and came to blows.

Be a detective. Think about the source of information. Who originally told this story? The Patriarchs and Matriarchs, who were nomadic herdsmen. Naturally they told the story from their own point of view.

They saw the farmers (Cain) as violent – which they were. There was constant tension between settled city or town dwellers, and the wandering herdsmen.

The Bible remembers the struggle between the nomadic life and settled agriculture through a story where the different characters represent different ways of life. It is history remembered through a different medium, history embedded in a story.

(June 7, 2014 at 3:37 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm)mickiel Wrote: Well there is so much biblical archaeology that leads to evidence of a god existing, its just unreal;

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/palaces.htm

Biblical archaeology is showing that some places mentioned in the Bible existed. There's also something else very interesting on that site but a bit of history first.

Canaan - Hieroglyphic and Hieratic sources

Quote:1500-1000 BC

During the 2nd millennium BC, Ancient Egyptian texts use the term Canaan to refer to an Egyptian-ruled colony, whose boundaries generally corroborate the definition of Canaan found in the Hebrew Bible, bounded to the west by the Mediterranean Sea, to the north in the vicinity of Hamath in Syria, to the east by the Jordan Valley, and to the south by a line extended from the Dead Sea to around Gaza.

Ark Of The Covenant

Quote:Over the Ark was the Kapporeth, a gold plate the same size as the Ark, called in some translations the 'mercy seat'. The golden cherubim stood one at either end of the 'mercy seat' covering it with their outspread wings.

There are two photographs with the following captions -

Quote:Creatures on the shrine doors in the Egyptian pharoah Tutankhamun's tomb.
They strongly resemble the Bible's description of the cherubim.

The Bible specifies 'two cherubim of hammered gold with wings spread upward,
facing each other at the ends of the cover'

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Quote:What might the designers of the Ark been influenced by?

Tutankhamun's Tomb

One of the most startling examples comes from the tomb of Tutankhamun.

When Howard Carter opened the inner chamber, he found a statue of Anubis, Egyptian god of the dead, sitting on top of a large box covered with pure gold. It had poles inserted into rings so that it could be easily carried.

The Bible tells us that the Ark was originally transported from shrine to shrine, before David's son Solomon built a permanent home for it in the Temple in Jerusalem.

The poles of acacia, specified in the Bible, were used in much the same way as the poles on the Shrine of Anubis - to lift and carry.

The outer casings around Tutankhamun's coffin were covered with hammered gold leaf. At each corner, and on the doors, were winged female figures (cherubim?) who stretched their wings out and over the surface of the casings, as if to protect its contents.

Surely this cannot be coincidence? Each item described in the Bible

the winged protectors

the hammered gold and

the poles fitted onto moveable shrines

appears in Tutankhamun's tomb. One must assume that the Egyptian designs were copied and adapted by the Hebrew tribes of the time when they created their own religious artifacts.

As Canaan was an Egyptian colony for a while, the Hebrews didn't need to be in Egypt to learn of Egyptian designs.

If old ruins and artefacts prove that deities exist the Egyptian gods and goddess have to exist along with the Mesopotamian gods and goddesses. The God of the Bible is now one of many.

This site has some interesting explanations for various things and I found this while browsing.

Cain and Abel

Quote:Farming

In Neolithic (and more recent) hunter-gatherer societies, women collecting seed noticed that plants appeared where seeds had been dropped the previous year. In time the women began to drop seed deliberately and harvest it the following year when they returned. This was probably how agriculture started.

It may be why Eve, rather than Adam, was blamed for mankind's loss of the Garden of Eden. Food had been plentiful enough (in a good year) without much effort on people's part. Now, with the invention of the plough, things changed. Suddenly more land could be cultivated, and more people fed - but this required more work than hunter-gatherers were accustomed to. The 'Garden of Eden' was lost.

Cain Murders Abel

Quote:What the Story is really about
It would be a mistake to think this story is about one event, long ago, when two brothers quarrelled and came to blows.

Be a detective. Think about the source of information. Who originally told this story? The Patriarchs and Matriarchs, who were nomadic herdsmen. Naturally they told the story from their own point of view.

They saw the farmers (Cain) as violent – which they were. There was constant tension between settled city or town dwellers, and the wandering herdsmen.

The Bible remembers the struggle between the nomadic life and settled agriculture through a story where the different characters represent different ways of life. It is history remembered through a different medium, history embedded in a story.

Interesting. Lets keep this going and see if your myths can keep up with my facts then;

http://www.ancient.eu.com/Ishtar_Gate/

(June 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm)mickiel Wrote: Well there is so much biblical archaeology that leads to evidence of a god existing, its just unreal;

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/palaces.htm

That sounds about right.
(bolding above mine)

(June 7, 2014 at 3:43 pm)mickiel Wrote: Interesting. Lets keep this going and see if your myths can keep up with my facts then;

http://www.ancient.eu.com/Ishtar_Gate/

Once again, I'll ask you to stop re-defining terms to suit your ends. Archaeological evidence that people or places existed lend exactly zero gravity to the claim of existence or nonexistence for your deity.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:47 am)mickiel Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 11:31 am)One Above All Wrote: If you're just going to redefine everything to suit your "arguments", you will fail at convincing anyone of anything... other than yourself.

[.

I hold no interest in convincing anyone here of anything; atheist should think exactly as they do, they are supposed to. I think as I do, because it is my time to think in that manner. I do not believe in changing how others think; I like atheist just as they are.

So you just want to pontificate beliefs and ignore contrary information.

Www://livejournal.com

(June 7, 2014 at 4:21 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 3:43 pm)mickiel Wrote: Interesting. Lets keep this going and see if your myths can keep up with my facts then;

http://www.ancient.eu.com/Ishtar_Gate/

Once again, I'll ask you to stop re-defining terms to suit your ends. Archaeological evidence that people or places existed lend exactly zero gravity to the claim of existence or nonexistence for your deity.

I use terms as I understand them. I don't redefine anything. And archaeological evidence of people and places in the bible lend credence to the god of the bible. So we definitely disagree there.

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/bible_...ericho.htm

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(June 7, 2014 at 4:29 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 11:47 am)mickiel Wrote: I hold no interest in convincing anyone here of anything; atheist should think exactly as they do, they are supposed to. I think as I do, because it is my time to think in that manner. I do not believe in changing how others think; I like atheist just as they are.

So you just want to pontificate beliefs and ignore contrary information.

Www://livejournal.com

In my view you are ignoring my information and it is you pontificating.