(May 3, 2010 at 3:31 pm)Synackaon Wrote:

(May 3, 2010 at 3:28 pm)Watson Wrote:

(May 3, 2010 at 3:23 pm)Paul the Human Wrote:

(May 3, 2010 at 3:14 pm)Watson Wrote: I've not read very much of the Bible, thank you very much.

Is there another source that claims the Christian god exists? Something not written by those already convinced by the bible itself, I mean. If not, then how can you claim belief when you haven't even read the source material thoroughly? Sounds like make believe to me.

I believe all religions are correct, to an extent. They all make the attempt at describing the same phenomena. As does Atheism, even, and SCIENCE too. Some beliefs are simply more or less naive than others, more or less corrupt.

I am Christian out of the multitude of othe religions because, from what I know of it's theology, I have found it is the most far-reaching religion in scope. It does the best job, to me, of describing the pheomena that is this life we live in.

I have something better at describing phenomena - it is called SCIENCE.

It was designed for this.

(May 3, 2010 at 3:34 pm)Watson Wrote:

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(May 3, 2010 at 3:31 pm)Synackaon Wrote:

(May 3, 2010 at 3:28 pm)Watson Wrote:

(May 3, 2010 at 3:23 pm)Paul the Human Wrote:

(May 3, 2010 at 3:14 pm)Watson Wrote: I've not read very much of the Bible, thank you very much.

Is there another source that claims the Christian god exists? Something not written by those already convinced by the bible itself, I mean. If not, then how can you claim belief when you haven't even read the source material thoroughly? Sounds like make believe to me.

I believe all religions are correct, to an extent. They all make the attempt at describing the same phenomena. As does Atheism, even, and SCIENCE too. Some beliefs are simply more or less naive than others, more or less corrupt.

I am Christian out of the multitude of othe religions because, from what I know of it's theology, I have found it is the most far-reaching religion in scope. It does the best job, to me, of describing the pheomena that is this life we live in.

I have something better at describing phenomena - it is called SCIENCE.

It was designed for this.

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A man just bought a blender (It's a Blend-Tec). Wanting something tasty to drink, he decides to add everything he thinks he likes (whether or not it is food) into it and blend it. After noticing that it tastes awful, is carcinogenic and is undrinkable, he ditches everything except what is meant to be eaten and makes a new smoothie. He discovers it tastes much better.

Always get the right tool, right materials for the right job. Just because you "think" ideally that somethings can be mixed it, falling back to the bare minimum and starting with that is better than trying to mix every shitstain religion and idea produced from the groggy muddling morass of human intellect.

It's called cherry picking. This is what I believe, because this is what I'd like to think is true.

Watson:

Okay, so this 'all-loving' God of yours...

He's fine with cancer [1] and earthquakes; he's fine with having designed humans with inherent biases towards doing bad stuff [2], which of course they then proceed to do. Why is he okay with all of this? Because he knows better; its all a means to an end. It doesn't matter what horrors are visited upon the people now- its all for the greater good.

Your God reminds me of Stalin, or Pol Pot- two idealists who justified their terrible crimes in the name of a better tomorrow. Except of course that the atrocities that your God has inflicted upon us, the unimaginable suffering that he is responsible for, have been on a vaster larger scale.

Infinitely Good? Definitely not. Infinitely ruthless? Yes.

And another point. If God is willing to slaughter people in their millions, to cheerfully create hideous diseases and watch while their symptoms unfold, then what else is he prepared to do (for the greater good, of course)? Well, at the very least he'd be prepared to lie through his insubstantial and eternal teeth. Lying, after all, is a much lesser sin than murder. So how do you know that the Bible isn't simply a tissue of lies concocted by God for whatever purpose?

[1] If God created us, then he created us with the predisposition to develop cancer. He also created us within an environment with carcinogens. Theres no way that you're getting away with absolving him of blame for this one.

[2] See, for example the Tajfel experiments on minimal groups. Humans have an inherent bias towards discriminating against non-members of their group even when the group is defined arbitrarily.

Caecilian, the link in your above post appears to be broken at least for me anyway. Other than that: Awesome post. Absolutely brilliant in fact. Hence the kudos.

EvF

Quote:So because it made more sense to you, that made it true?

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: For me, yes.

Awesome. At least you acknowledge that the basis of your belief is logically invalid.

Quote:Creationists also make this case - it's harder to study a field and learn about many intricacies of a subject than to just believe a guy talking about a holy book and say Magicmandunit.

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: It's also easier to say "There is nothing to this world here that I can't study with my human tools and my human mind" than to observe the world and say "Maybe there are things my human mind is just not big enough to comprehend."

And who's proposing that? Did anyone in this thread even hint at something so monumentally vapid?

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: And this, I'm afraid, comes from a very ingrained inability to accept or pin responsibility on yourself or those around you. God is loving and perfect, you don't seem to comprehend this. He created this world and He filled it with His children, and He gave His children options to take. The choices themselves are up to us.

Yes - you have a choice to believe in him or burn for eternity. Praise the all loving God who makes us sinful by nature and guilty from birth.

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: A loving diety that created the entire universe? He would know better than you do, actually. He would know what lessons the child could learn from that disease or that problem, and would not interfere when nature took it's natural course and strickened the child. No, God did not 'give' the child cancer, the child was just subjected to natural laws and ended up with cancer. Deal with the cards your dealt.

Either God intervenes or he doesn't. Make up your fucking mind. If he has the power to do so, why doesn't he do it? He sent his son to suffer for a day and die, but he allows us to suffer for years for the possibility of learning a life lesson? What kind of sadistic shit is that? That's like a person kidnapping a 10 year old girl and locking her in a basement for 10 years to teach her the importance of family. It makes no fucking sense.

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: Again, I know you don't believe, but think about it. If an all-powerful, perfectly loving God existed, He would know better than you. And He would be waiting for those thousands dead with open arms when their mortal bodies are shed and their souls go to Him. It is the sweetest kind of redemption for such a tragic end that I can think of.

Unfortunately, most of those people didn't accept Jesus into their hearts before they died. Woops! Off to hell they go. They might have a good view of how their children left behind are fighting for the scraps of food thrown to them by the vicious gangs that now run the streets, and eventually die from a combination of starvation and opportunistic infection from some archaic disease cured by medical science decades ago. God is great!

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: As for those homeless? They are lucky they still have a life to live and to breathe, so that they may have the opportunity to enjoy themselves in whatever way possible. You seem to forget there's an entire universe out there away from our societal constructs. Who's to say a man can't leave a disaster area all on his own and find a new home, somewhere far off, more at one with nature?

You know, like Buddha...?

What the fuck? Do you understand how poverty works? People aren't homeless because they just don't want to be anything in life, there are MANY more factors in it than that. You can want many things in life, but not all opportunities present themselves in all situations. There are many instances where a person is literally trapped with zero options.

Do you even know what a Buddha is?

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: Again, see the first answer about cancer.

Which was preachy bullshit. Next time don't try to justify kids getting cancer with "God's lesson plan".

(May 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm)Watson Wrote: I disagree whole-heartedly. It is man and nature which makes no sense sometimes.

Killing kids cause their parents didn't paint lamb's blood on their door makes perfect sense.

Minimalist Wrote:This promises to be every bit as stupid as your last attempt.

Don't you ever get tired of looking like a fool?

Do you ever have anything intelligent to say besides aggressive attacks?

Minimalist Wrote:You know what, Angel, you keep believing that god played in the dirt and made you. Leave the heavy thinking to those who can handle it.

I hope you don't mean yourself. If you were paying attention, you would know that I am a theistic evolutionist, and that I believe Genesis to be more symbolic. The the dirt reference is plain ignorant.

Minimalist Wrote:Your arguments are childish.

Who's the one constantly throwing temper tantrums? You're clearly some dumb kid with no real knowledge or understanding. I have to at least give Tavarish props for effort. He's dumb as a doorknob, but at least he always has that Google button ready, and consults his Richard Dawkins bible enough to attempt to create the illusion of intelligence. But you just spout dumb, unsubstantiated statements with little effort. Do me a favor. Don't talk to me unless you have something smart to say.

(May 3, 2010 at 3:52 pm)AngelThMan Wrote:

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Minimalist Wrote:This promises to be every bit as stupid as your last attempt.

Don't you ever get tired of looking like a fool?

Do you ever have anything intelligent to say besides aggressive attacks?

Minimalist Wrote:You know what, Angel, you keep believing that god played in the dirt and made you. Leave the heavy thinking to those who can handle it.

I hope you don't mean yourself. If you were paying attention, you would know that I am a theistic evolutionist, and that I believe Genesis to be more symbolic. The the dirt reference is plain ignorant.

Minimalist Wrote:Your arguments are childish.

Who's the one constantly throwing temper tantrums? You're clearly some dumb kid with no real knowledge or understanding. I have to at least give Tavarish props for effort. He's dumb as a doorknob, but at least he always has that Google button ready, and consults his Richard Dawkins bible enough to at least create the illusion of intelligence. But you just spout dumb, unsubstantiated statements with little effort. Do me a favor. Don't talk to me unless you have something smart to say.

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Do not attack the crochety old man.

Oh, now I see what AngelThMan's problem is. He suffers from Cranial Homeritus.

(May 3, 2010 at 4:03 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Oh, now I see what AngelThMan's problem is. He suffers from Cranial Homeritus.

Right, because this is real intelligent and mature.