Welcome back, Shell B. I missed you.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

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Quote:Really Min is that why any believer comes here, because we can't stand the fact you disagree?

Yes, ultimately (especially in your case) I think that is true.

We frighten you. We can exist without groveling to your god (or any of the other gods you think are fake) and the fact that "He" fails to strike us dead causes you more consternation. ("Come on GOD...show these immoral atheist bastards who is BOSS!!!!!") But he ignores you....again.

We are a repudiation of your entire worldview and you can't stand it. So...like moths to flames...here you are. Again. Still. With nothing to offer.

70 pages and you still have yet to offer anything more than

If x then god

You know, I can keep calling you an asshole for as long as you want to be one.

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True you can call me an asshole, but when have I ever been such a prick to you you grumpy old man? I don't know if your target was someone else, but go fuck yourself. I have never once tried to evangalize to anyone on here even in PM's. I frankly could give a rat's left nut what your feelings are about my God, because to me God is completely subjective. I have had very little to contribute if any of theese 70 pages. You aren't even in my world view, other than tacking up another synical, stubborn, egotist to add to my connotation of "atheist". I've never wished for anyone to be struck down, especially for their lack of belief. However if he were to stike you down, I doubt it would be because you simply doubted his existence. You personal claims against me are baseless and incogruent with any behavior I've ever exhibited, in person or on theese forums. You do have the right to make all the baseless claims you want, but don't get offended if I call you and atheist prevaricator.
So ShellB, tav , and Adrian also agree that I've been an asshole hunh with their kudos. I'd like one reference on this forum where I was undeservingly an asshole to anyone on theese forums.

(May 5, 2010 at 7:27 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

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I have no idea why you think it's plausible that humans could become non-physical. How can anything physical become non-physical? Is that even possible?

In fact, is anything non physical at all? I know of no evidence of anything that is. (Non-material maybe, because I've heard that some particles aren't the same as "matter" or something like that, but non-physical - I don't know of any way how that could even be possible).

And how is this the same as a deity that is supposedly the supernatural creator of the universe? And you're guessing that somehow humans will become non-physical in the future, but what's that got to do with it already being the case? And a deity that created the universe, "God", already existing - is not the same thing right?

EvF

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I suppose by our conversations that I meant non-material. I was simply saying it's plausible that material form is limiting and that we could transcend it one day. Then I was just carrying the possiblity to it's fullest extent. I don't personally believe there is measurable or objectifiable evidence for God's existence, I was just changing the subject ince everyone was talking in circles. As far as it already being the case; that involved the potential of a an immaterial consciousness manipulating the laws of physics better than a material form, and being able to time travel.

(May 5, 2010 at 9:32 am)tavarish Wrote:

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(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: Now if the human race has the possibility to evolve into transcendant beings, given enough time in existence, wouldn't that possibility have to happen at least once along the timeline of existence? Would that transcented human seem omni-max to our persective today? If it existed outside time and could affect reality would it not attempt to further itself by the process of creation, even if merely from instinct?

You're presenting way more questions than answers.

1. We don't know if humans morphing into 'transcendent' beings or whatever you call it, is even possible. There's no reason to think it is.
2. Evolution isn't a ladder. There is also a possibility that nature can prefer a less complex organism, rather than a more complex one. There's also a possibility that we'll all evolve into walking penises. Why don't we account for that?
3. You're asking a hypothetical question based on another hypothetical question. Stop arguing from personal incredulity. We don't know what our perspective would be - it's never happened.
4. You're equating God to something that evolved, which necessarily means he isn't eternal, as evolution has to do with reproduction, natural selection, and death.

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The point was to change the subject and I intended to raise more questions than answers.
1. Evolving using the abiogenesis model, we are now ultra complex multi-celled living organisms with enough room in our DNA to record the entire history of mankind, correct? We were a collection of inanimate matter, correct? Through selection, random coincidence or some form of guiding hand we got to where we are now and will continue on as long as we can, as a species. Life expectancies increase, birth rate rise, but there is finite room. Form is limiting, if selection plays any part in evolution wouldn't to not be limited? I would.
2. True, survival may become dependant on simplicity, but 1 mass of immaterial collective consciousness would be more simple then 1 trillion individual complex organisms trying to eek out a niche of the enviornment. As far as giant penises, I'm willing to entertain any possibilities, just one at a time.
3. No I'm stating a hypothesis based on a far fetched assumption for the purpose of getting everone out of the ruts they're obviously entrenched in.
4.I've never said whether God evolved or not. If I had to hazzard a wild guess I'd say that he did evolve, as we were created in his image and we evolved, but all that is well outside the known universe.

(May 5, 2010 at 11:20 pm)tavarish Wrote:

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(May 5, 2010 at 10:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Min not you or any atheist is a threat to my knowledge of God, you are no more than a wink in time why would I be threatened by someone who's here today and gone tomorrow when I have an eternal God who will take care of me no matter what comes my way. The reason I'm a part of this forum is to increase in my knowledge of God. You see Min you or for that matter anyone on this forum that challenges what I believe helps to make me stronger. Your challenges make me dig deeper into scripture to find Gods intended truth for my life. So I'll end this reply tonight by saying thanks for aiding in my growth as a christian. When I find a little time I'll find a verse that will just thrill you.

Spoken like a truly closed-minded individual.

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No, closed-minded is someone who mistakingly rails some one else because they're so far in their trench they lump anyone who labels themselves Christian in one collective group. What's more closed minded is the atheist that kudos that.

(May 5, 2010 at 7:28 am)Scented Nectar Wrote:

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(May 5, 2010 at 5:20 am)tackattack Wrote: If humans evolve through cognitive social and natural selection and we carry that out through the existence of humanity, where does that lead? Is it feasible for one day, if the world becomes slowly unlivable by todays means (O2 , fresh water, food intake), that a humans could evolve past the need for a physical body? Could they transcend their physical selves into a semi-tangible transcendant form? Once in that form would it not be easier to experiment/ control the forces of the universe (gravity, energy, radiation, time). If the species transcended to a point where it was one collective amount of sentient energy, with control over the forces of nature would we not attept to create life ourselves on a planet, if only for experimentation? With all this being plausible, why is God so implausible aren't they basically the same thing?

Have to admit that I haven't read this whole long thread, and am jumping in.

The idea of humans becoming a collective energy based life form through evolution is very very unlikely, but a hell of a lot more plausible and realistic than a god. A god is not the same thing as a natural process. If it was, it would be called 'nature' instead of 'god'. If you call it 'god', everyone will think you are talking about an invisible, magical, everything-creator who wants humans to do certain things we wouldn't normally do, like reassure it telepathically how much you love it (gods don't have very good self esteem, especially the xtian one who keeps declaring everything he makes 'good' and then fucking it up so bad he had to keep destroying it).

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I hadn't kept up with the last 30-40 pages myself, just trying to break the circle myself. Why is it soooooooo unlikely? Some beliefs do call God nature. From a Christian perspective, God doesn't need our telepathic anything.. he is whole of himself and an absolute. I don't see God destroying anything from my perspective. I see a series of natural phenomenon and mythos that some people believe came from God to teach us what we need to do to get colser to him. The only death and destruction I've seen comes from Man's choices and Nature's method.

(May 6, 2010 at 2:14 am)tackattack Wrote: So ShellB, tav , and Adrian also agree that I've been an asshole hunh with their kudos. I'd like one reference on this forum where I was undeservingly an asshole to anyone on theese forums.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I actually didn't realise that was your quote. Besides, I gave kudos to the post because of this:

Minimalist Wrote:70 pages and you still have yet to offer anything more than

If x then god

I don't think you've been an asshole to anyone.

If anyone is feeling guilty of being an asshole, don't worry about it. We are absolved of guilt, luckily, as a Palestinian of earlier times has already been brutally murdered to balance our accounts.

Also, Godschild- I've got a verse that might delight you- Ezekiel 37: 1-14. If you can mirror the described I will pray to whatever God you want. Also I'll give you 20 bucks.

@Adrian Alright, just checking that I wasn't on bizzaro atheist forums... That sights all fractal and annoying

(May 6, 2010 at 3:38 am)lukec Wrote: If anyone is feeling guilty of being an asshole, don't worry about it. We are absolved of guilt, luckily, as a Palestinian of earlier times has already been brutally murdered to balance our accounts.

Also, Godschild- I've got a verse that might delight you- Ezekiel 37: 1-14. If you can mirror the described I will pray to whatever God you want. Also I'll give you 20 bucks.

I do like that verse. Sounds like someone was really high that day AS far as absolution,that reuires acceptance which you're very unlikely to get skeptics to do.

(May 6, 2010 at 2:14 am)tackattack Wrote: So ShellB, tav , and Adrian also agree that I've been an asshole hunh with their kudos. I'd like one reference on this forum where I was undeservingly an asshole to anyone on theese forums.

Take it easy - it's the internet and I thought he made a valid point. Calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant an investigation.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: The point was to change the subject and I intended to raise more questions than answers.

Which gets us nowhere without evidence. You can speculate til your brain explodes, but it doesn't have any explanatory power unless you back it up with something.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: 1. Evolving using the abiogenesis model, we are now ultra complex multi-celled living organisms with enough room in our DNA to record the entire history of mankind, correct?

Abiogenesis isn't an evolutionary model, and our DNA doesn't hold that much information. Most of it is junk.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: We were a collection of inanimate matter, correct?

I don't know, and I don't claim to.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: Through selection, random coincidence or some form of guiding hand we got to where we are now and will continue on as long as we can, as a species. Life expectancies increase, birth rate rise, but there is finite room.

Finite room for what? Are we at risk of running out of something?

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: Form is limiting, if selection plays any part in evolution wouldn't to not be limited? I would.

I don't understand this question. Run it by me again.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: 2. True, survival may become dependant on simplicity, but 1 mass of immaterial collective consciousness would be more simple then 1 trillion individual complex organisms trying to eek out a niche of the enviornment.

Why would they necessarily be less complex? Do you know the attributes of the disembodied consciousnesses to make such a claim? Are there any now that you can use as a reference?

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: As far as giant penises, I'm willing to entertain any possibilities, just one at a time.

That's what she said.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: 3. No I'm stating a hypothesis based on a far fetched assumption for the purpose of getting everone out of the ruts they're obviously entrenched in.

I'll speak for myself, I am in no such rut, I'm actually quite happy, but I'd rather not play a pointless game of "what if", as it has zero explanatory value and I'd rather not waste my time.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: 4.I've never said whether God evolved or not. If I had to hazzard a wild guess I'd say that he did evolve, as we were created in his image and we evolved, but all that is well outside the known universe.

Evolving means being a product of reproduction and change over time. I really don't know how you can apply changes to a God who is supposedly perfect in the first place. It doesn't make any sense.

(May 5, 2010 at 6:39 am)tackattack Wrote: No, closed-minded is someone who mistakingly rails some one else because they're so far in their trench they lump anyone who labels themselves Christian in one collective group. What's more closed minded is the atheist that kudos that.

I actually try pretty hard to address everyone's arguments for what they're worth, and not judge them based on what the authors believe. Godschild basically asserted that any evidence contrary to his belief will send him further into that belief. That is purely asinine - it's lemming behavior. We need to learn to approach our deepest held beliefs with the same scrutiny as everything else. If something doesn't make sense, don't rationalize, there's a good chance it just truly doesn't make sense.

(May 6, 2010 at 9:38 am)tavarish Wrote: Take it easy - it's the internet and I thought he made a valid point. Calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant an investigation.

It's true. Tavarish is a complete asshole. He is such an asshole that he was once mistaken for the channel tunnel!

(May 6, 2010 at 11:38 am)Loki_999 Wrote:

(May 6, 2010 at 9:38 am)tavarish Wrote: Take it easy - it's the internet and I thought he made a valid point. Calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant an investigation.

It's true. Tavarish is a complete asshole. He is such an asshole that he was once mistaken for the channel tunnel!

lol @ chunnel.

(May 5, 2010 at 11:42 pm)Shell B Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='69146' dateline='1273114599']Min not you or any atheist is a threat to my knowledge of God, you are no more than a wink in time why would I be threatened by someone who's here today and gone tomorrow when I have an eternal God who will take care of me no matter what comes my way.

Quote:Wait a minute. I thought that god takes care of all of us. Now he's all yours? /sarcasm

He does however those who do not believe in Him will not see what He is doing.

(May 5, 2010 at 10:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: The reason I'm a part of this forum is to increase in my knowledge of God. You see Min you or for that matter anyone on this forum that challenges what I believe helps to make me stronger. Your challenges make me dig deeper into scripture to find Gods intended truth for my life. So I'll end this reply tonight by saying thanks for aiding in my growth as a christian.

Quote:It's too bad that you don't realize the unfortunate fact that the stronger a Christian is, the weaker their reasoning. You are closing your mind to reality to suit your need for comfort. That's okay with me, but don't expect an atheist to clap because you've lost your mind.

What does being a strong christain have to do with weak reasoning. Do you really believe that your nonbelief negates God. Not at all. The logic that atheist claim can not define God because He is beyond your logic. If I were closing my mind I would not be a part of this forum I would shut myself up in the corner of a church building somewhere and believe what other christians say. I search the scriptures for truth and the members of this forum challenge me to do so.

(May 5, 2010 at 10:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: When I find a little time I'll find a verse that will just thrill you.

Quote:Godschild (sounds like a Viking name if you say it fast), I never try to take anyone away from their faith. If believing in bullshit makes you happy, that's fine with me. However, comments like, "I'll find a verse that will just thrill you." make you sound silly . Don't you get that many atheists (not me) know more scripture than your average Christian and those of us who don't (like me), don't because we can't be bothered with it? You should probably save your verses for your peers. They tend to be far more impressed by them than this crowd.

I do not try to impress other christians and I'm not here to impress you or anyone else. I never tried to imply that anyone on this forum has ever tried to change my belief. I did not join this forum to prove God to anyone nor attack someone because of their nonbelief. I'm not sure why some of you took offense at the "thrilling verse thing" maybe you should have had a little patience and you would have understood please don't be so sensitive. Viking name?
Min likes to poke at christians and sometimes it seems he gets carried away and tries to tell others like myself that we are worthless because of what we choose to believe when our belief is just as relevent as his nonbelief.

Quote:In parting, I would like to say, holy butchered grammar, Batman!

Sorry about the grammar I do my best I hope you can look past it.

Quote:Really Min is that why any believer comes here, because we can't stand the fact you disagree? It couldn't be to falsify their belief, the pursuit of truth, seeing another's opinion or simple curiosity?

You give them far more credit than I do, tack. I seriously doubt that true believers expect to learn much on a message board.

You see....most of them think they already know everything.