(June 24, 2014 at 3:24 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 3:11 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: LOL - god eat my homework?

Even the most imaginative of Christians would recognize that's nothing to do with your god, that's your own damn incompetence.

How do you know that?

Because most here make the mistake of deleting a post from time to time.

Are you saying that your mistake is different than ours?

We're incompetent, but the creator of the universe stepped in for you.


That's a ridiculous claim, even for you.

(June 13, 2014 at 11:22 pm)topher Wrote: 1. Does it matter to you whether or not your beliefs are true?

Yes and no. I don't want to hold to things that are demonstrably false. However, if something can't be proven false and it makes my life better, then it's not important to me to prove it true in order to accept it.

Quote: 2. Do you agree that truth is determined by evidence and observation of facts, and not through any other means?

No. Logic, testimony of others, and (to a lesser extent) intuition are also useful.

Quote:3. Do you understand that there is no evidence to support the claim that your beliefs are true?

No. I understand that there are certain things which I accept as evidence but which you reject.

(June 24, 2014 at 2:54 pm)Lek Wrote: They weren't particularly powerful experiences for me, but since I had prayed for God's guidance, I felt that is what it was. I wouldn't refer to these experiences as "brushes with the divine" since he's with me all the time, but sometimes he takes more extreme measures, if I fail to pay attention. I believe these were a couple of those times.

Being with you all the time, you must be pretty familiar with the experience of a god? Care to tell me a little about this experience? What does it entail?

According to AM's definition, since this argument is logically sound and valid, it's true.

(June 24, 2014 at 3:58 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(June 13, 2014 at 11:22 pm)topher Wrote: 1. Does it matter to you whether or not your beliefs are true?

Yes and no. I don't want to hold to things that are demonstrably false. However, if something can't be proven false and it makes my life better, then it's not important to me to prove it true in order to accept it.

How sad.

I have a friend that was addicted to drugs, living on the street, and doing petty crimes.

He walked into a Hindu temple in LA on day and claims he had a Hindu based religious experience.

He turned his life around that day. He now has a successful small business and a family. He's still a believing Hindu.

Are his beliefs as true as yours?

(June 24, 2014 at 3:58 pm)alpha male Wrote:

Quote: 2. Do you agree that truth is determined by evidence and observation of facts, and not through any other means?

No. Logic, testimony of others, and (to a lesser extent) intuition are also useful.

Logic is only useful if fed with correct (evidence based) premises. Logic alone can not prove a thing.

Intuition without testing is useless.

Testimony of others, like my friend's conversion to Hinduism, right?

(June 24, 2014 at 3:58 pm)alpha male Wrote:

Quote:3. Do you understand that there is no evidence to support the claim that your beliefs are true?

No. I understand that there are certain things which I accept as evidence but which you reject.

You should rethink what you are willing to accept as evidence. Your threshold is too low, when it comes to your religious beliefs.

I'll bet you reject so many other claims (alien abductions, Bigfoot, crystal healing, etc, etc) that other people believe based on their intuition and testimony.

(June 13, 2014 at 11:22 pm)topher Wrote: 1. Does it matter to you whether or not your beliefs are true?

I'm comfortable with the fact that what I or anyone else believes is only superficially influenced by whether or not it is true. As such, I try not to lust after the unobtainable of having my beliefs be certifiably true, and instead concentrate on what is useful and what is virtuous.

(June 13, 2014 at 11:22 pm)topher Wrote: 2. Do you agree that truth is determined by evidence and observation of facts, and not through any other means?

I think this is a rather loaded question, and most theists would agree. Observation and science aren't the only roads to Rome, and there are many different kinds of information and experience which we must rely upon to guide us on our way through life. Evidence comes in many assorted shapes, colors, and sizes; it's not all science and rationality. Myself in particular am primarily intuitive, and consider the idea that we are 'rational' beings to be so much pseudoscience. Thus, attempting to order our lives in accordance with 'reason' would be another pursuit of the unobtainable.

(June 13, 2014 at 11:22 pm)topher Wrote: 3. Do you understand that there is no evidence to support the claim that your beliefs are true?

I think you're presupposing the form that 'evidence' must take to be useful or worthwhile. Does it bother me that none of the forms of evidence which you value attest to my belief? No it does not. I follow the stars in my sky; that they are not a part of your horizon is no skin off my nose.

(June 24, 2014 at 4:15 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: How sad.

Why is that?

Quote:I have a friend that was addicted to drugs, living on the street, and doing petty crimes.

He walked into a Hindu temple in LA on day and claims he had a Hindu based religious experience.

He turned his life around that day. He now has a successful small business and a family. He's still a believing Hindu.

Are his beliefs as true as yours?

First, your question is a non sequitur, as I did not claim that utility implies truth.

Second...aren't you happy for him? Would you be happier if he were an atheist drug addict?

Quote:Logic is only useful if fed with correct (evidence based) premises. Logic alone can not prove a thing.

Intuition without testing is useless.

On what basis do you claim that truth is the most important goal in life?

Quote:You should rethink what you are willing to accept as evidence. Your threshold is too low, when it comes to your religious beliefs.

Why? What scientific evidence do you have that I should do so?

(June 25, 2014 at 10:52 am)alpha male Wrote: First, your question is a non sequitur, as I did not claim that utility implies truth.

But you did....

(June 24, 2014 at 3:58 pm)alpha male Wrote: However, if something can't be proven false and it makes my life better, then it's not important to me to prove it true in order to accept it.

In his example, Hinduism made his friend's life better. Therefore, there's no need to determine if it's true, and there's no direct evidence that it's false.

(June 25, 2014 at 12:09 pm)LostLocke Wrote:

(June 25, 2014 at 10:52 am)alpha male Wrote: First, your question is a non sequitur, as I did not claim that utility implies truth.

But you did....

(June 24, 2014 at 3:58 pm)alpha male Wrote: However, if something can't be proven false and it makes my life better, then it's not important to me to prove it true in order to accept it.

In his example, Hinduism made his friend's life better. Therefore, there's no need to determine if it's true, and there's no direct evidence that it's false.

Sorry, but saying that there's not a need to determine if it's true is not the same as saying that it's true.

(June 24, 2014 at 3:24 pm)Lek Wrote: How do you know that?

Because most Christians I know, (and speaking from past experience as a former-Christian as well) do not blame their god for their screw ups.