(June 30, 2014 at 10:38 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(June 30, 2014 at 6:04 pm)ronedee Wrote: Whats stopping YOU from helping them? Even a few?

What's stopping God from helping them? Why put the responsibility on puny humans instead of on an almighty being like God?

It's more fundamental than even that. If God decided to work just through humans, fair enough. What grinds my gears is when it's assumed that God will intervene directly in SOME prayers, the ones which we make for Love or a new ipad, but not others. He'll bring us good things, but not them.

It's the Inconsistency.

(July 1, 2014 at 6:11 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

(June 30, 2014 at 10:38 pm)Irrational Wrote: What's stopping God from helping them? Why put the responsibility on puny humans instead of on an almighty being like God?

It's more fundamental than even that. If God decided to work just through humans, fair enough. What grinds my gears is when it's assumed that God will intervene directly in SOME prayers, the ones which we make for Love or a new ipad, but not others. He'll bring us good things, but not them.

It's the Inconsistency.

You're not factoring in the people that don't want His help!

You have to step back and "try" to understand. But you also need some real desire to actually know, and understand.

So, why would God want to answer them if they don't care? Where is His desire to proof something here?

I can't tell you how many times here... that the debate has come down to whether an atheist really wanted to know God, or not. Most times its not! Because they hate Him, for all the bad things that happened in "my life." One person here actually told me that she stopped believing when her mother died of cancer. News alert: WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

Is that what God hinges on? Someone dying of cancer? A baby straving in Africa? We have the power to eradicate all the troubles in the world.... but its easier to sit back and blame God! The One who gave us life to begin with.... the One who promises us eternal life, in a place we can't ever imagine! And to be like Him!

No! He is just supposed to hand us everything! Spoon feed us for eternity! Where is the give and take? The worthiness? The FAITH?

I'll let you in on something.... Until you proclaim your Faith in Him, you won't move a step towards understanding what He is all about. And no amount of "me", or anyone else trying to explain "our" experiences to you will do anything more than frustrate you!

You can discredit God in all the good things in my life.... but you (ALL) look as foolish to me as I look to you.

(July 1, 2014 at 9:30 am)ronedee Wrote: No! He is just supposed to hand us everything! Spoon feed us for eternity!

Jacob was referring to the suffering of innocents all around the world, versus the convenience of people who pat god on the back for their good luck. Is it really "spoon feeding" for god to make it so children around the world don't suffer and die by the millions every year? Do you consider it "spoon feeding" whenever you believe that god stepped in to answer your prayers, or those of other believers who asked for anything less pressing than "I don't want to die of disease or starvation today"?

(July 1, 2014 at 9:30 am)ronedee Wrote: You're not factoring in the people that don't want His help!

Poor people don't want his help? Children starving to death in Africa don't want God's help? Victims of earthquakes and other natural disasters don't want God's help? People with cancer don't wish God could relieve them of that suffering?

Ronedee is so clearly deluded and WANTS TO BELIEVE. The question is, why? What are the real psychological factors that make you so utterly willing to fall on your knees at the first inclination of magic, R? Mind if I call you R? For some reason I don't think your reason for belief is that you just can't explain how everyday events in your life work without miracles from the Divine (that would mean you actually care about intelligible explanations).

Quote:Is that what God hinges on? Someone dying of cancer? A baby straving in Africa? We have the power to eradicate all the troubles in the world.... but its easier to sit back and blame God! The One who gave us life to begin with.... the One who promises us eternal life, in a place we can't ever imagine! And to be like Him!

We can stop cancer effectively? Earthquakes? Tsunamis?

(July 1, 2014 at 9:30 am)ronedee Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 6:11 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: It's more fundamental than even that. If God decided to work just through humans, fair enough. What grinds my gears is when it's assumed that God will intervene directly in SOME prayers, the ones which we make for Love or a new ipad, but not others. He'll bring us good things, but not them.

It's the Inconsistency.

You're not factoring in the people that don't want His help!

You have to step back and "try" to understand. But you also need some real desire to actually know, and understand.

So, why would God want to answer them if they don't care? Where is His desire to proof something here?

No need to even consider people who don't want god's help. Many very devote people pray for aide and don't get it. Then they say, well it was god's will. If all positives are counted as wins, and all negatives are counted as god's mysterious will, then prayer will always appear to work. But that's childish. You really do have to count the misses. So there is no proof or even indication that prayer works, is there?

Quote:I can't tell you how many times here... that the debate has come down to whether an atheist really wanted to know God, or not. Most times its not! Because they hate Him, for all the bad things that happened in "my life." One person here actually told me that she stopped believing when her mother died of cancer. News alert: WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

You can't both be an atheist and hate god. Atheists don't believe in god. I don't hate god. I didn't cease to believe because I hated god. I've lived a good life. Anger at god or even religion is not my reason for disbelief. I don't believe because there's about as much evidence for god than there is for unicorns.

Quote:I'll let you in on something.... Until you proclaim your Faith in Him, you won't move a step towards understanding what He is all about. And no amount of "me", or anyone else trying to explain "our" experiences to you will do anything more than frustrate you!

Frankly, if believing in god without evidence is necessary to understanding god, then there's no god to understand.

I do understand you have experiences that feel like god to you. But since they are internal, having coming from believing first, I don't think they're god. Others professing radically different faiths from yours have similar experiences and say similar things. You can't all be right since your conceptions of god are so different.

Quote:You can discredit God in all the good things in my life.... but you (ALL) look as foolish to me as I look to you.

I'm quite ready to believe that believing in god makes you feel good about life. But that doesn't make god real. If someone lied and told me I won the lottery and I believed it, I might feel really really good. And if I died believing it, I'd never be undeceived. But, that wouldn't mean I had won the lottery. Thinking god looks after you and will gather you up to heaven may feel good. But it doesn't mean that he does take care of you or that you are going to heaven.

I know having people disagree with you about your cherished beliefs is infuriating. But you did come to an atheist forum. Exactly what did you expect to find here?

(July 1, 2014 at 9:30 am)ronedee Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 6:11 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: It's more fundamental than even that. If God decided to work just through humans, fair enough. What grinds my gears is when it's assumed that God will intervene directly in SOME prayers, the ones which we make for Love or a new ipad, but not others. He'll bring us good things, but not them.

It's the Inconsistency.

You're not factoring in the people that don't want His help!

You have to step back and "try" to understand. But you also need some real desire to actually know, and understand.

So your position is that those 26,000 people who starve to death each day do so because they don't want his help? Is that really what you're saying? That these guys WOULD have their prayers answered but they don't because they don't want Gods help?

Yeah, you can see the indifference written all over their faces.

Quote:So, why would God want to answer them if they don't care? Where is His desire to proof something here?

Interesting choice of words. Suggests that They did ask... but that they didn't care. And an even more interesting question. Why would God answer them if they didn't love him.

Let me ask you a question Ron. Lets say there is this kid, starving to death. Distended belly, desparate eyes, etc. He asks you, actually begs you, for food, which you can give him with no effort, and which will save his life.

Why should you help him? To prove something? Because he loves you? Or other

You keep blaming God for things in OUR power to fix!

Also, life in this world is an eye blink compared to eternity.

Look at Jesus... Why was He able to do things others were not able to do? Because of His Faith. He said: "It is not I, but my Father that works through me."

And through it all, He still had to DIE!

We are all connected. We are all in this together, whether we are: Rich, Poor, Starving, Fat, etc, etc.

The great equalizer is death. No one escapes it. Does it really matter when, where or how or who? No. what matters is that "it will" happen. Whether its a straving baby, or a mother with cancer, or the guy who got run over by a speeding bus today! "Why did God make that bus speed?!!" Why restrict yourself to "babies dying"?! We're all fucked! Right? Or are babies for added emphasis?

So your death can be a doorway, or a hole in the ground. Jesus showed us the way out of our misery, and demise. But we get too caught up in our selfishness and anger.

He owes us NOTHING! Get that through your thick heads. NOTHING!

We owe Him our lives. And one day we will have to account for that gift! I want others to account for the gift of life I received. Beacuse it isn't about ME! Its about US!

You want to ask Him why babies die? He will tell you He put YOU here to help them! That you watched and didn't lift a finger! And that all you did was complained rather than do something... anything to help them! But ultimately they are safe with Him now... or will be.

We have it in our collective world power to wipe out hunger, diesease and sorrow in this world. But we as a human race would rather: fight, accumulate wealth, and blame others and God for our own ignorance!

No, I'm not blaming God for anything. Because don't believe he exists any longer.

You're missing the point. Its not about suffering, it's about prayer.
I just want to know why you think he answers your prayers, but not theirs.