Had it not been for Palin, I would have voted for McCain in 2008 ... but the thought of the Presidency having a gravitational well of stupidity that close to it scared me shitless.

(July 2, 2014 at 12:27 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Everything, since it was decided upon the basis of the sincerity of their belief, and not it's accuracy. Did you actually read the fucking ruling or the justices comments? Apparently, they sincerely hold this conviction where it costs them money (employee benefits) but not where it makes them money (their investments).

Is it so strange to sggest that an exception to the one precludes ones involvement in the other, legally? Like, if you want to be a non-profit (so as to avoid those taxes)....you can't then, you know...report profits.....

Since you connected some dots that tie this claim to the case I feel the need to reply. However the following are a few facts that nullify the point you made.

1. Hobby Lobby doesn't make money on employee 401K plans. Its employees make money but Hobby Lobby does not. Contribution into employee 401K plans by Hobby Lobby is an expense for the company not a profit.

2. 401K funds are not invested directly into companies which profit by killing unborn human beings. They invest in funds which diversify themselves by investing in multiple companies. Hobby Lobby has no control of what companies those funds will invest the money in.

3. Hobby Lobby is required by law to select investment options on the 401k menu in the exclusive best interest of the participant. It would simply be illegal for Hobby Lobby to select options which require the participant to sacrifice returns or take on more risk just to persue the religious preference of the owners of Hobby Lobby.

(July 2, 2014 at 5:25 pm)Heywood Wrote: Since you connected some dots that tie this claim to the case I feel the need to reply. However the following are a few facts that nullify the point you made.

1. Hobby Lobby doesn't make money on employee 401K plans. Its employees make money but Hobby Lobby does not. Contribution into employee 401K plans by Hobby Lobby is an expense for the company not a profit.

It's not a charity. It is an investment for the company, sometimes there are expenses to our investments. You don't think that they offer the 401k because they think doing so will make their profits go down..do you?

Quote:2. 401K funds are not invested directly into companies which profit by killing unborn human beings. They invest in funds which diversify themselves by investing in multiple companies. Hobby Lobby has no control of what companies those funds will invest the money in.

They researched the contents of their employees health packages enough to find objection - but not the driving engine of that investment? Meh, maybe, but I doubt it. They always have the option of another investment package. There's never an "objective best" when it comes to investing. Even though the company can't decide what's in the package ...they can decide whether or not their money will go into that package.

No argument from me on that last point. I enjoy the firm line drawn between religious owners and their employees.

I'm amusing myself with the ethics, friend, and how they don't match up to the legality of the issue.

(July 2, 2014 at 5:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It's not a charity. It is an investment for the company, sometimes there are expenses to our investments. You don't think that they offer the 401k because they think doing so will make their profits go down..do you?

I think they offer them as a means to attract good employees...so yes in a round about way they profit from 401ks. But they are not making money off them in the way you initially suggested.

(July 2, 2014 at 5:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: They researched the contents of their employees health packages enough to find objection - but not the driving engine of that investment? Meh, maybe, but I doubt it. They always have the option of another investment package. There's never an "objective best" when it comes to investing. Even though the company can't decide what's in the package ...they can decide whether or not their money will go into that package.

They didn't have to research this aspect of Obamacare. The administration didn't try to bury it....they touted it as a feature.

It is impossible for Hobby Lobby to determine what companies and when these funds will invest in. One day the fund might have invested in the company that produces Plan B....the next day it might have liquidated that position.

Also it isn't Hobby Lobby deciding to invest the money into particular funds. The employees are the ones which select the funds they will put there money into. Now Hobby Lobby is responsible for administering the menu of funds from which the employees can choose from, but it would be impossible for them to screen out all funds which invest in the abortion trade without running afowl of pension law.

(July 2, 2014 at 5:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No argument from me on that last point. I enjoy the firm line drawn between religious owners and their employees.

I'm amusing myself with the ethics, friend, and how they don't match up to the legality of the issue.

Well then you should concede that Hobby Lobby isn't being hypocritical but rather just trying to comply with pension law.

But I ask you this, how far removed does one have to be from being free from supporting something? Does UPS support abortion because they deliver packages of the materials needed to preform abortions to abortion mills? Do you support the Iranian regime because you purchase products made from Iranian oil? The world is simply too intertwined to insulate yourself from participating in some small way in evil actions perpetated by others.

This whole drive to paint Hobby Lobby as hypocrites is merely an attempt to incite hate in Hobby Lobby. If you buy into these arguments without looking at them critically, you are simply buying into the hate others are selling.

I'm finding it amusing that the devout are overjoyed with the idea that nine robed Supreme Court justices have championed religious freedom by validating an ideal that not even the omipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator of the universe thought worthy enough to include in his special book. Meanwhile, four states have had their gay marriage bans packed up their ass in the last month; a topic that can loosely be identified with the insipid word of said creator.

Please let me know what it feels like to be chained to your oars while rowing a sinking ship under the lash of intolerant idiots.

(July 2, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Heywood Wrote: . . . . .

This whole drive to paint Hobby Lobby as hypocrites is merely an attempt to incite hate in Hobby Lobby. If you buy into these arguments without looking at them critically, you are simply buying into the hate others are selling.

I can see sincere pro-lifers being dismayed with the carelessness Hobby Lobby is showing in their investments.



(hope I condensed that down correctly, if not, please point out error(s) within 2 hour edit window, thanx)

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(July 2, 2014 at 11:43 am)Heywood Wrote:

(July 2, 2014 at 11:28 am)Jaysyn Wrote: So how come Hobby Lobby is ok with these costs of doing business? They could easily change mutual funds or get the garbage they sell from India, Pakistan or Indonesia incomes to child labor abuses. Oh yeah, they also don't allow religious worship.
stead of China. Why are you so blind their hypocrisy & political grandstanding?

Hobby Lobby's "hypocrisy" has nothing to do with the constitutionality of that clause of the law.

Now here is one to think about. The Affordable Care Act did not contain a severability clause(it was included in drafts but was taken out of the final version). Since a portion of the law was struck down couldn't an argument be made that the entire law is subsequently struck down?

It would go to sincerity of belief. LIke the warden at the penitentiary doesn't have to provide personal lube for the penis worshippers on death row (or does he?), so if the Hobby Lobby family is just doing a little wealth transfer to the lawyer caste, for the hell of it, it would have a bearing on whether or not the supremes would bother to weigh in on it.

(July 2, 2014 at 10:52 am)Heywood Wrote: As far as I am concerned the solution to this problem is simple. If Hobby Lobby doesn't want to purchase contraception coverage don't force them too. Just require Hobby Lobby to give each employee a per diem equivalent to what it would cost Hobby Lobby to provide such coverage. The employee can then spend that money they way they choose.....let the employee buy their own contraception coverage.

We do go for that, because it's basically identical to purchasing the insurance coverage. It's not as if the numbnuts who run that redneck Jesus craft store have to personally purchase birth control and personally hand it over to every individual employee who needs it. You mention an equivalent payment. The keyword is 'equivalent'. Handing over cash money is no more or less involving the company in the procurement of this drug that offends their idiot sensibilities than is purchasing the insurance that their employees may or may not use for fertility medicine of any kind. It's a gesture that means literally nothing.

All this boils down to is giving the religious special privileges. Let's see how much you all like it if some Muslims attempt to test how much Sharia Law they can inflict upon people citing this ruling.

A Theist Wrote:You liberals won't go for that because you always want to force your way of life onto others.

(July 2, 2014 at 8:08 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(July 2, 2014 at 10:52 am)Heywood Wrote: As far as I am concerned the solution to this problem is simple. If Hobby Lobby doesn't want to purchase contraception coverage don't force them too. Just require Hobby Lobby to give each employee a per diem equivalent to what it would cost Hobby Lobby to provide such coverage. The employee can then spend that money they way they choose.....let the employee buy their own contraception coverage.

We do go for that, because it's basically identical to purchasing the insurance coverage. It's not as if the numbnuts who run that redneck Jesus craft store have to personally purchase birth control and personally hand it over to every individual employee who needs it. You mention an equivalent payment. The keyword is 'equivalent'. Handing over cash money is no more or less involving the company in the procurement of this drug that offends their idiot sensibilities than is purchasing the insurance that their employees may or may not use for fertility medicine of any kind. It's a gesture that means literally nothing.

All this boils down to is giving the religious special privileges. Let's see how much you all like it if some Muslims attempt to test how much Sharia Law they can inflict upon people citing this ruling.

Negative Ryantology.

It is not the same as buying insurance coverage. It is the same as compensating the employees with cash and letting them decide how to spend it.

The small tranche of cash will have a particular label recommending to the employee how it should be spent. This will fool the libertards into thinking they've done something good but the reality is we are exactly where we were regarding contraceptive coverage before Obamacare. People getting paid for their labor in cash and then buying contraceptives on the open market if that is what they choose to do.

The truth is, you libertards fuck things up trying to get people to behave and think the way you want people to behave and think. The government maximizes freedom....maximizes the ability to persue happines....by just staying the fuck out of peoples lives.

(July 2, 2014 at 5:25 pm)Heywood Wrote: 1. Hobby Lobby doesn't make money on employee 401K plans. Its employees make money but Hobby Lobby does not. Contribution into employee 401K plans by Hobby Lobby is an expense for the company not a profit.

Unless hobby lobby is totally ignorant to common 401k investment practices, they certainly do! Most companies fund 401K's quarterly but extract your investment per paycheck. The company retains all of the interest on the funds between payments, which is quite the sum..

(July 2, 2014 at 9:50 pm)Heywood Wrote: Negative Ryantology.

It is not the same as buying insurance coverage. It is the same as compensating the employees with cash and letting them decide how to spend it.

As far as Hobby Lobby is concerned, it is precisely the same. They are not paying directly for any particular medical service. The insurance company and the employee are the ones directly paying for the birth control. That's how health insurance fucking works.

Quote:The small tranche of cash will have a particular label recommending to the employee how it should be spent. This will fool the libertards into thinking they've done something good but the reality is we are exactly where we were regarding contraceptive coverage before Obamacare. People getting paid for their labor in cash and then buying contraceptives on the open market if that is what they choose to do.

In other words, we are placing the bulk of the financial burden on those with the least finances.

Quote:The truth is, you libertards fuck things up trying to get people to behave and think the way you want people to behave and think. The government maximizes freedom....maximizes the ability to persue happines....by just staying the fuck out of peoples lives.

You're the jackass whose single issue in regards to voting is who does the most to getting the fuck in women's uteruses. Don't even pretend like freedom is something you care about outside of what you personally get to enjoy.