(July 21, 2014 at 1:45 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Our political leaders use religion to get the uneducated poor to hate Middle Eastern countries.

Mostly it is our religious opportunisys who are using uneducated poor try to dictate to our political opportunists.

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(July 21, 2014 at 2:56 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Is it really prudence to attack Middle Eastern states to stop them from getting the bomb? To trade guaranteed lives lost for possible lives lost? If we could wave a magic want and keep Iran from ever getting nukes, I would advise it. However, we don't have any magic wands, all we have is human means, and they all involve trade-offs. If we want to keep nukes out of the hands of a state determined to get them, there's no way it doesn't cost us dearly.

Actually, I think it would be not be a bad move to ignore the bleeting of the Likud and allow Iran to equip itself with nuclear weapons, and allow Saudi Arabia to possess a de facto nuclear capability through an agreement with Pakistan. They will neutralize each other.

(July 21, 2014 at 9:24 am)mralstoner Wrote: As I said, it boils down to prudence v. risk taking. I'm sure many Iranians are thoroughly modern people oppressed by theocracy. But that doesn't mean there aren't 12th Imam lunatics there too. We can't all have personal experience in every country. We have to make a judgment based on 2nd-hand information. And I've heard enough about the Twelvers to err on the side of caution. I can't wait for Israel to act. Bring it on.

You're right, we must rely upon others for information much of the time. However, I'd suggest that the information you're gleaning from the US media is deliberately sensationalized. It certainly doesn't comport with my personal experiences with Iranian citizens, both when I lived there in my youth, and later, when interacting with Iranian visitors (my job brings me into much contact with tourists).

There are some lunatics in Iran, but they're not in positions to enforce their lunacy. The leadership, even the religious leadership, practices Realpolitik very carefully, and like most power elites, their goals are 1) national survival, and 2) retaining their hold on power. Using their lunatic fringe to justify attacking them is no different than justifying an attack on America because some fundamentalist Christians want to bring on the end-times.

Quote:And as far as I heard, Obama was/has eased the sanctions without neutering their nuclear program, merely delaying it while Iran fills its pockets with cash. Net result: Iran gets the cash, and later continues on with its nuke program (assuming it really is delaying it). Obama thinks he can negotiate with everyone: The Taliban, Putin, Muslim Brotherhood, China, Hamas, etc. Iran is just the same, they will play Obama for the fool he is.

Here's what I've read and heard on the radio:

Quote:VIENNA (AP) — The United Nations will release a report this week certifying that Iran's ability to make a nuclear bomb has been greatly reduced because it has diluted half of its material that can be turned most quickly into weapons-grade uranium, diplomats said Tuesday.

The move is part of Iran's commitments under a deal with six world powers in effect since January that mandates some nuclear concessions on the part of Tehran in exchange for a partial lifting of sanctions crippling its economy.

A key concern for the six was Iran's stockpile of 20-percent enriched uranium, which is only a technical step away from the 90-percent grade used to arm nuclear weapons. By late last year, Iran had already amassed almost enough of the 20-percent grade for one nuclear bomb, with further enrichment.

Under the agreement, Iran agreed to halt its 20-percent enrichment program and to turn half of its nearly 200-kilogram (440-pound) stockpile into oxide for reactor fuel. As well, it pledged to dilute the other half into low-enriched uranium.

Making weapons-grade uranium by reconverting from oxide or from the lower level would take much longer than doing so from the 20-percent enriched material, giving more time for the international community to react. Iran says it is not interested in nuclear weapons but is negotiating because it wants an end to all sanctions.

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-newsbreak-iran-...51010.html

That represents quite a significant step, and seems to support exactly what I was saying, that the government there is very concerned about reducing the sanctions, probably out of fear of domestic unrest. It was only five years ago that the mullahs nearly lost their grip on power, and they do not want a repetition.

The issues involved, and the Iranian people themselves, are quite a bit more sophisticated than the simple "kill-or-be-killed" scenario you've been handed.

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Also, I'm absolutely against yet another aggressive war in the Middle East.

OK everyone I've got the solution right here...

It is not they hate us for our freedom. They truly believe US is a christian nation, and bring Jesus to slay them all. Well, this is coming from Iraqis, Afghanis, and Qataris; I have spent a better part of 6 years in the Middle East. Almost all believe in spreading Islam, and enforcing it on the rest of the world. They consider Islam the final solution, and the solution to all. Most of the exploitation come from their own countrymen. US does exploits, but not nearly as much as their own country men, which they allow, because a follower of Islam will not lie to them. To lay the blame solely on the US and other Western Countries is ridiculous.

The political leaders will lie to their own citizens and blame it squarely on America. It is just as bad as Hitler blaming all of Germany's problems on the Jews.

(July 21, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Chuck Wrote: Mostly it is our religious opportunisys who are using uneducated poor try to dictate to our political opportunists.

As far as I can tell, our religious and political opportunists are pretty much the same people playing slightly different roles.

(July 22, 2014 at 1:02 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(July 21, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Chuck Wrote: Mostly it is our religious opportunisys who are using uneducated poor try to dictate to our political opportunists.

As far as I can tell, our religious and political opportunists are pretty much the same people playing slightly different roles.

I think the difference is our political opportunists know what they want for themselves. Our religious opportunists knows what they want to deny to others. Our system would reach its highest degree of dark ages fuckedupness when what political opportunists wants for themselvs dovetails perfectly with what religious opportunists can give them in return for being allowed a freehand to deny to others what they want to deny to others.

(July 22, 2014 at 12:39 pm)Dragonetti Wrote: It is not they hate us for our freedom. They truly believe US is a christian nation, and bring Jesus to slay them all. Well, this is coming from Iraqis, Afghanis, and Qataris; I have spent a better part of 6 years in the Middle East. Almost all believe in spreading Islam, and enforcing it on the rest of the world. They consider Islam the final solution, and the solution to all. Most of the exploitation come from their own countrymen. US does exploits, but not nearly as much as their own country men, which they allow, because a follower of Islam will not lie to them. To lay the blame solely on the US and other Western Countries is ridiculous.

The political leaders will lie to their own citizens and blame it squarely on America. It is just as bad as Hitler blaming all of Germany's problems on the Jews.

This certainly doesn't comport with my experience. Where in the Middle East were you?

Ref. Post #1: Just more typical Israeli BS. They are most likely funding ISIS.

They've been whining that Iran is only days away from getting nukes for the past 20 years. A cave man could have built a nuke in less time than it's taking the Iranians. If they wanted some they should have simply bought the damn things.

(July 17, 2014 at 3:28 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(July 17, 2014 at 1:25 pm)AtlasS Wrote: ISIS is another CIA covert ops, and just an advice : believe me you don't want FOX NEWS to be your source.
The only threat is the lust for money and oil, if somebody is to bring down western civilization it is not Muslims, it is lust for others' natural recourses.

I'm sure you also believe 9/11 was carried on by Muslims.

Thanks God smart one is in here. LoL. *kidding*
I'm with you

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Well i thought western societies should be smarter to any news.
Issues to Moslems have pattern, if anyone here's aware. And i guess, anyone here will say to me : You advocate Islam because you're a moslem. Exactly yes. because i though debate on Theological/Science is such classy a lot than to just mocking religions(catholic, protestant,etc) or shamely ISIS. ISIS is trash.
In fact i have red line on debating Islam :
1. Killing non-believer
2. Limitation rights of women
3. Advocates violation

How about Islam theology..me as moslem, not interested at all on those above issue on Islam-because i exactly knows what's behind the door- Thus, theological debate with science is something sophisticated to be debate.

(July 19, 2014 at 7:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The Muslim view is that the earth has already been full of oppression and injustice.

Much of which is the fault of Islamic governments. So, there's that.

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(October 3, 2014 at 3:39 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: How about Islam theology..me as moslem, not interested at all on those above issue on Islam-because i exactly knows what's behind the door- Thus, theological debate with science is something sophisticated to be debate.

There is no debate. Theology is delusion, science is reality.