Posts: 3022
Threads: 34
Joined: May 11, 2013
Reputation:
30
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 8:46 am
Actually this has been the most civilised feminism related thread I have ever seen.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 9:19 am
(This post was last modified: July 24, 2014 at 9:21 am by Dystopia.)
Tiberius I've seen similar studies in my country that justify with similar factors why women earn less, but can we call that discrimination? I don't think so. Let's imagine women put the same time and effort to work and studies, do you think there would still be a wage gap? No. Discrimination would be if equal jobs means less paying for women and more for men. You can't say it's discrimination if, let's say, more men are CEO than women. I've met some women on real life that occupy high ranking jobs, most of them either do not have kids or their husbands are stay at home dads, they're proof there is no such thing as discrimination when it comes to high ranking jobs, as long as you have the skills and can do it well, they'll hire you. Like my dad always told me, 'if you're good enough you won't have to look for a job, they'll come for you instead'
Maybe if we made studies of wages according to race or religion we could conclude some races earn more on average than others, people that follow religion X or Y earn more on average than people who follow other religions... This is not discrimination, merely a sociological factor, we can try to erase it according to possibilities, but we can't force people to be equal. Equality means equal opportunities, not results
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
151
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 11:22 am
(July 24, 2014 at 9:19 am)Blackout Wrote: Tiberius I've seen similar studies in my country that justify with similar factors why women earn less, but can we call that discrimination? I don't think so. Let's imagine women put the same time and effort to work and studies, do you think there would still be a wage gap? No. Discrimination would be if equal jobs means less paying for women and more for men. You can't say it's discrimination if, let's say, more men are CEO than women. I've met some women on real life that occupy high ranking jobs, most of them either do not have kids or their husbands are stay at home dads, they're proof there is no such thing as discrimination when it comes to high ranking jobs, as long as you have the skills and can do it well, they'll hire you.
If you look at the way our species has evolved it seems likely that a 9 months long gestation followed by a prolonged childhood put enormous pressures on our females. It probably goes a long way to explain the tendency of females to look for mates that are good providers. In a state of nature, wouldn't mothers need either the help of an extended family or troop/tribe. I wonder if our pair bond is (and was) stronger than in other primates.
One stance one could take toward this state of affairs is to legislate in some support for females to compensate them for the demands of motherhood. But, taking into account Tiberius' comments, another way would be simply to note that this is why women are more focused on a mates means to provide. So one could say "let the inconvenience of motherhood be handled the way it has always been handled" in other words, leave women in the care of the mate she chooses. In the first stance, one looks to accommodate motherhood on a troop-wide level. By the second stance, one says let the pair bond take care of it.
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 12:49 pm
(July 24, 2014 at 11:22 am)whateverist Wrote: (July 24, 2014 at 9:19 am)Blackout Wrote: Tiberius I've seen similar studies in my country that justify with similar factors why women earn less, but can we call that discrimination? I don't think so. Let's imagine women put the same time and effort to work and studies, do you think there would still be a wage gap? No. Discrimination would be if equal jobs means less paying for women and more for men. You can't say it's discrimination if, let's say, more men are CEO than women. I've met some women on real life that occupy high ranking jobs, most of them either do not have kids or their husbands are stay at home dads, they're proof there is no such thing as discrimination when it comes to high ranking jobs, as long as you have the skills and can do it well, they'll hire you.
If you look at the way our species has evolved it seems likely that a 9 months long gestation followed by a prolonged childhood put enormous pressures on our females. It probably goes a long way to explain the tendency of females to look for mates that are good providers. In a state of nature, wouldn't mothers need either the help of an extended family or troop/tribe. I wonder if our pair bond is (and was) stronger than in other primates.
One stance one could take toward this state of affairs is to legislate in some support for females to compensate them for the demands of motherhood. But, taking into account Tiberius' comments, another way would be simply to note that this is why women are more focused on a mates means to provide. So one could say "let the inconvenience of motherhood be handled the way it has always been handled" in other words, leave women in the care of the mate she chooses. In the first stance, one looks to accommodate motherhood on a troop-wide level. By the second stance, one says let the pair bond take care of it.
1 - By legislating in support of motherhood taking into account the disadvantages it brings isn't the State pretty much promoting the gender role than women are the ones who should look after children?
2 - How would we support it? I'm not a fan of affirmative action. I can understand motherhood brings inconveniences, but I care about the results more. It doesn't matter the reason someone doesn't invest in their career, if they don't, no reward for you.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
151
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 1:03 pm
(July 24, 2014 at 12:49 pm)Blackout Wrote: 1 - By legislating in support of motherhood taking into account the disadvantages it brings isn't the State pretty much promoting the gender role than women are the ones who should look after children?
2 - How would we support it? I'm not a fan of affirmative action. I can understand motherhood brings inconveniences, but I care about the results more. It doesn't matter the reason someone doesn't invest in their career, if they don't, no reward for you.
Well there is lots of precedent for this approach especially in the tax law. I'm not sure where I stand between the two approaches. It just does take a village, but there is no reason it should necessarily be state mandated.
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 1:32 pm
(This post was last modified: July 24, 2014 at 1:36 pm by Dystopia.)
(July 24, 2014 at 1:03 pm)whateverist Wrote: (July 24, 2014 at 12:49 pm)Blackout Wrote: 1 - By legislating in support of motherhood taking into account the disadvantages it brings isn't the State pretty much promoting the gender role than women are the ones who should look after children?
2 - How would we support it? I'm not a fan of affirmative action. I can understand motherhood brings inconveniences, but I care about the results more. It doesn't matter the reason someone doesn't invest in their career, if they don't, no reward for you.
Well there is lots of precedent for this approach especially in the tax law. I'm not sure where I stand between the two approaches. It just does take a village, but there is no reason it should necessarily be state mandated.
Well either it applies to all mother or we don't implement it, laws are typically made by the state (parliament, in the US case congress, senate, etc.). I also think these laws could discriminate and incentive some women to not invest in careers if the social and economical/tax/SS benefits were more appealing than going to work.
This seems like that case of ethnic and religious minorities entering college with lower grades. They may have less conditions to study, but should we allow people with above average skills? I don't think so, it's the only rational solution. The fact some people from minority groups became successful is enough to prove the possibility of it happening without affirmative action.
I also think regarding women and wages we must take into account general preferences women may have for certain jobs. For instance here in portugal, there are more women as teachers and as doctors than men, but university professors are mostly men, the same for CEO's and politicians, there is even a law requiring 20 or 30% (can't recall) of politicians in the parliament must be female. Men tend to follow more engineering for instance. In law school the tendency is now for more women and the number of women who are judges has been increasing. I saw a draft on the news last year, 50 people distributed by several courts, 48 were women
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 15755
Threads: 194
Joined: May 15, 2009
Reputation:
145
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 7:18 pm
(This post was last modified: July 24, 2014 at 7:24 pm by Violet.)
(July 23, 2014 at 1:26 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: You need to go back to the asylum, take your meds, let the doctors help.
No asylum on this planet can hold me, as I'm a ghost, you see 
(July 24, 2014 at 8:43 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Oh hey, let's just see what's going on in this threa---
![[Image: fire_community.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.reactiongifs.us%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Ffire_community.gif)
Welcome home, my child.
(July 24, 2014 at 8:46 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Actually this has been the most civilised feminism related thread I have ever seen.
No thanks to you  
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
Posts: 3022
Threads: 34
Joined: May 11, 2013
Reputation:
30
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 7:56 pm
Oh get off my thread you crazy bitch
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
Posts: 15755
Threads: 194
Joined: May 15, 2009
Reputation:
145
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 8:15 pm
(July 24, 2014 at 7:56 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Oh get off my thread you crazy bitch
That'd be about as unlikely as me getting out of your head. See... I'm not crazy, unless you perceive me to be, due to not fully exploring a character your subconscious has designed specifically to tell you that you need help.
Appreciate the offered discourse, and help shall you receive 
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
Posts: 3022
Threads: 34
Joined: May 11, 2013
Reputation:
30
RE: Modern feminism
July 24, 2014 at 9:00 pm
Why do you have to make everything so weird?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
|
