(July 28, 2014 at 8:03 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(July 28, 2014 at 7:48 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Not nearly as many as there have been Palestinians.

How many? Do you not know?

Quote:You say don't fire at the school right? Well they are firing at your schools, do you wait until they kill your children? All the while you get to look weak, and because they think your weak they try harder to kill you.

This is exactly the kind of thought process which makes people have sympathy for Israel. As though they are 'under attack' on anywhere near the scale as what the Palestinians are. As though Hamas and Israel are two powers on a comparable level. What Israeli schools have been bombed by Hamas in this conflict? I must have missed that news story.

This conflict has nothing to do with looking weak, if you think that then you know even less than me about it.


On another note, I just found a rather interesting article (user written article) on the subject:
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Palestine...g-20140714

I know Moros would berate me because I'm sitting here not coming up with any solutions. He's berated me for that in the past. Truth is, I don't know what would stop this conflict and indeed if there is even a solution to it. The article I quoted seems to reflect my thoughts on the matter though, and gives a solution that I find to be better than what is going on right now. Perhaps this solution is too idealistic but I do think both sides are in the wrong, however the crucial point that I can see, is that it's Israel who needs to be doing more. It's Israel that should stop the bombing, it's Israel who should make more of an attempt to solve the current oppression that is going on in Palestine. They are the ones who bear more responsibility from what I can see. The barbaric and mindless attitude of "kill them all" that Moros expressed earlier, is still, fucking disgusting IMHO.


With that, I'ma shut up. Probably derailed this thread a fair bit and arguing about any of this is futile.

I never said the conflict was about looking week only that looking weak is what happens when you don't retaliate. In truth the only way thus conflict will end is if isreal puts the Palestinians down the way the roman put down the Jews or the Gauls. And no I never want to live to see that.

(July 28, 2014 at 3:42 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Once again, Sam Harris opens his mouth on politics, and once again I'm left shaking my head. This time he wrote a lengthy blog in defense of the utter brutality that Israel has been exercising on her enemies the last few weeks. You can read it here: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-d...ize-israel I know he speaks for no one but himself but perception is everything, and he has in many people's minds earned a place as one the fiercest and most well-versed proponents for the modern age's shift towards atheism. He's revered by many atheists, including those here, and in multiple respects this is well-deserved; that's also why I fear he is doing a heck of a job misleading the impressionable and creating a caricature of atheists that many, such as myself, find despicable. I have quoted his work before in arguing certain positions, and I can only imagine how his continual display of ignorance on vastly complex topics will be all too easily thrown back in my face.

My two biggest problems with his article:
The defense that Israel could cause a lot more damage, but doesn't, hence her intentions must be noble.
Second, that Hamas is to blame for the devastation Israel has caused for the millions who live in Gaza, when in fact Israel has made those people suffer for decades; Hamas is a predictable reaction. "Give me liberty or give me death" is a human ideal, not an American one. So, I was going to place this in the "Politics" section but I also think it deserves a spot here, as atheism, as a movement, which it can be called in some respects ("New Atheism")--and/or as it is perceived by believers--will be damaged by neo-con crap like this.

Also, Steven Pinker retweeted his link (another American Imperialist). I look forward to Murtaza Hussain's response (which he has promised in the future--and which I will post here).

All that aside, I'm still looking forward to Harris' new book Waking Up, which is coming out this September.

It struck me much as Chris Htichens's support for and defense of the American invasion of Iraq ... but at the end of the day, the stereotype of liberal atheist didn't get punctured.

You and I know who these guys are, and there's plenty of hardcore fundies who do, but the broad mass of American believers would probably think that Harris is a golfer or something. Following current events and reading op-eds isn't their big interest, I don't think.

The Gazan civilians are the ultimate victims in this.

They're the only ones who can point out the Hamas loyalists from the innocents.
They're also the ones Hamas militants will try to hide among.

Hamas steals aid and resells it for weapons, where their acts starve innocent Palestinians in the name of Hamas' "Jihad".

If Palestine is to survive, Hamas must be destroyed (Or it must swear and deliver upon the oath of peace with Israel and it's neighbors -- but I'm not holding my breath)

Peace will come when anyone can give money towards Gaza and not have it purchase military materials.

The Israelis are understandably sick of the "give them an inch, they try to take a mile" mentality in Gaza.

If you pull that shit long enough, do not be surprised when your enemy decides it is time to become as merciless and heartless as you are.

I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

(July 28, 2014 at 8:27 pm)Napoléon Wrote: I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

I... think I just saw a unicorn.

I apologize for my intense vitriol -- we both hate the situation in Gaza.

Too many innocents are paying for the few and their violent suicidal crusade against a large, angry neighbour.

I wish they'd just surrender instead of trying to fight to the last man. More families would be saved from death and destruction that way.

Genocide: "The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation." That is not melodrama, Moros--unlike your pathetic excuses for Israel's indiscriminate destruction and murder of entire Palestinian neighborhoods--which is. Please tell me why this senseless massacre is necessary or even conducive to their stated aims. We both know Israel, the most fortified country on the planet, was not in any imminent danger by Hamas' rockets (unlike the Palestinians, who do live in constant terror of their Jewish neighbor), which the Israelis themselves acknowledge.

(July 28, 2014 at 5:42 pm)Cato Wrote:

(July 28, 2014 at 5:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Judging by the respective body count the demilitarization of Israel might achieve more.

Sound strategy if your goal is the extermination of Jews.

If Hamas had any appreciable military capability the Israelis would be a lot slower to attack them. What is going on there right now is simply murder.

(July 28, 2014 at 10:58 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(July 28, 2014 at 5:42 pm)Cato Wrote: Sound strategy if your goal is the extermination of Jews.

If Hamas had any appreciable military capability the Israelis would be a lot slower to attack them. What is going on there right now is simply murder.

I cannot help but think of the question as old as war itself. "It is okay to kill someone that is trying to kill you?"

I know it's the "Holy Land" & all, but it's a damn shame they didn't just carve a chunk of Germany off to make a Jewish nation, instead of kicking them out the door right in the center of more enemies.

(July 28, 2014 at 10:49 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Genocide: "The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation."

Ok Smart-Ass, let's run some numbers to see if this is a "genocide" (you shit eating weasel...):

Number killed in current conflict ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel...a_conflict ):
1,065 Gazans
3,333 housing units destroyed (+3,380 partially usable) / 308,695 housing units ( 2-3% total damaged/destroyed max housing )
(total housing unit number extrapolated via http://www.irinnews.org/report/96734/opt...ing-crisis )

Population of Gaza:
1.816 million

Percent killed in current conflict:
0.058%

---

Comparison with previous recent recognized genocides:
High end:

---

Rwandan Genocide ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide ):
500,000 - 1,000,000 max estimated killed (United Human Rights places it at 800,000 Tutsi killed)

Population in 1994 of ethnic group targeted:
7 million people ( http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocid...rwanda.htm ), of which 14% is Tutsi = 980,000

Percentage killed in Rwandan genocide of targeted ethnic group:
51% to 81%

---

Low end:

---

al-Anfal Campaign ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Anfal_campaign ):
Estimated 50,000-182,000 Kurds killed
4,000 / 4,655 (90%+) villages destroyed

Kurdish population in Iraq at time:
3.5 million Kurdish

Percent killed:
1.4% - 5.2%

---

Definition of Genocide:
"acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".

Qualifications for Genocide using preceding recognized, recent examples:

1) Mass slaughter/deportations of ethnic group? (Rwandan Genocide example)

Israel has killed less than half of a tenth of a percent of Gazan population (Fails to meet definition)

2) Mass destruction of ethnic group resources (al-Anfal Campaign)

Israel has damaged much less than 10% of Gazan housing (Fails to meet definition)

---

Conclusion:

Categorically not a genocide..

Pickup, you're fucking wrong.

Israel has neither destroyed a significant portion of vital Gazan infrastructure nor has it destroyed a significant percentage of Gaza's population.

You're a fucking Hamas-licking fraud.